Hear more from George Dunn about new entrants, farm tenancies and diversity in the farming industry.
In this episode George Dunn, Chief Executive of the Tenant Farmers Association speaks more about tenancies and the wider farming industry.
Farming Focus is the podcast for farmers in the South West of England, but is relevant for farmers outside of the region or indeed anyone in the wider industry or who has an interest in food and farming.
For more information on Cornish Mutual visit cornishmutual.co.uk
For our podcast disclaimer click here.
Timestamps
00:01 Cornish Mutual jingle
00:14 Peter Green introduces the bonus and George Dunn.
00:50 George's key tips for a new entrant's first tenancy application and how they can learn from previous attempts.
03:38 If a new entrant is approaching a landlord for a share farming scheme or joint venture.
06:38 Make sure you document everything.
08:06 Share farming, joint ventures and employment - George's mention to younger listeners on building a career.
10:08 Which demographics are well represented in agriculture and how do we encourage greater diversity?
15:38 Peter Green rounds up.
Cornish Mutual. Farming Insurance Experts.
I'm Peter Green and welcome to this bonus episode of Farming Focus, which is linked to episode 5 of the show. These bonus episodes are intended to give you a deeper dive into what's covered in the main episode. So if you haven't already done so, click here. Do go back and take a listen to the full episode to make sure you get the most from this bonus.
We're now going to hear from George Dunn, Chief Executive of the Tenant Farmers Association, about accessing land. George will be giving us his top tips on putting together an application for a farm tenancy and much more.
I know someone who was unsuccessful in their first seven tenancy applications, but they say that they got their dream farm and their dream landlord on the eighth attempt 10 years after their first application. What would be your key tips for success, George, for, for a new entrance first tenancy application, but including how they can learn from any unsuccessful attempts.
Thanks. Yeah, well, I think you've said it there, uh, Peter, you know, 7 attempts to get your dream farm and your dream landlord. The 1st thing that I would certainly indicate that people need to have is perseverance. You do need to be prepared for the knockbacks and you do need to be prepared to have a mindset that you're going to persevere here because the, that dream farm may just be the next application that you put in and the next one that you get.
So perseverance is really, really important, but also I think people need to understand. The skills that they need to develop around business planning, putting together a business plan, putting together a budget that they can stand behind and a cashflow. You know, some people are really passionate about cows or sheep or whatever, but they don't really know how to articulate that on bits of paper and spreadsheets, and that's really important because.
The landlord and the landlord's agent want to know that you're going to be good for the money, if you like. So they need to have some information on paper, even if, even if the budget is, you know, based on lots of assumptions, at least you've got something to judge your progress. Also, understanding the landlord, you know, thinking about what it is the landlord wants to achieve and what the landlord's ethos is for owning the property is going to be really important so that you are in tune.
So if you're going after a National Trust farm. Well, the National Trust will obviously be concerned about. The natural environment and the historic environment, you know, if you're going to rip out every hedge and cut down every tree in order to sustain your business, that's not going to go down very well with a landlord like that.
So making sure that you're in tune with what the, what, what the landlord wants. And finally, developing those interpersonal skills, you know, cause you're going to have to be building relationships with the landlord, with the landlord's agent, with accountants, uh, with suppliers, with people who You know, your bank and your financiers and with customers.
So, you know, having that ability to, to display who you are. So you might be someone who really loves being around cows, but can't talk to a, a human being for, for love, no money. And, and that's not gonna get you gonna get you very far. So developing those interpersonal skills and young farmers is a really great way of doing that because it gives you lots of opportunity to get involved in activities and things that are outside your comfort zone to, to do that.
So yeah, those would be my top tips. Wow. There's a masterclass at about three minutes. Thank you, George. That's, that's brilliant. Thank you. Um, and so George, what if a new entrant is approaching a landlord with an idea for a joint venture or a share farming scheme, is the advice similar or is it a bit more nuanced in places?
No, no, I think it's, I think it's largely the same. And I think, you know, people just need to. Take those opportunities, go and knock on the door and say, you know, this is me, this is my idea, this is my plan, this is my thought process. I mean, the worst that they can say is no. So that's, that's the worst you're going to get in those, in those circumstances.
And I know many successful. Relationships have become established because somebody just asked the question, you know, I see you've got that, that area, that barn or that area of land. Can I come and do this on it? Um, and things have developed, uh, from there, but obviously you've got to make sure, as I said earlier, that you can show how you can de risk that situation for the owner and, and that they know you're, you're good for what you, what it is you want to do.
So thinking through your business Being prepared to justify your figures and making sure that the ideas that are in your head can be articulated into a written format. So yeah, I would say if you get an opportunity, grab it, because you'll regret not grabbing that opportunity when you, uh, have allowed it to go past.
Yeah. And if you don't ask, you don't know, you can learn so much even from a no, as it were, can't you? Absolutely. And the feedback is vitally important that people, you know, take on board. And it's always, I think everybody's always surprised by the areas that they are, where they're weak in. And, uh, and that feedback is vitally important for, for learning for the next opportunity.
Why is it important that we don't just think about tenancies, but sort of, sort of think outside the box when it comes to that access to land? To use a biblical analogy, the Apostle Paul said about, you know, about Christianity, by all means convince them. So there's always many routes to success. And obviously tenancies are always going to be an important part of the new entrance story.
But there will be other ways to get in. And we talked about employment, obviously. There are many ways, uh, to be, to, to, to get into this industry and to work in this industry. And there are people who are successfully running very large contract farming businesses, people who are running a number of joint ventures, people who are running on share farming arrangements.
And, and it's all about matching the individuals together. In a legal framework that works best for them and the ideas that they have gone most of the time tenancies will give you that opportunity to do that when you are coming at an idea without having access to land. But, you know, we, we shouldn't discount the other ways that you can use land, um, and, and be entrepreneurial in, in, in thinking about those, uh, those other ways in.
Yeah, and your last couple of answers have actually both sort of alluded to the need to make sure that everyone understands what's expected of all parties. That's really important in this space, isn't it? It's vital that everything gets documented and everything gets written down. I always say that an agreement by handshake or an agreement, In words is no agreement at all because people's recollection of what was agreed will differ and will change over time.
And it might be that you write things down and you never refer to that document again and that's the best position to be in because everybody's clear where they're going. But when the wheels do come off the bus, having the opportunity to refer back to documentation, and even to the extent that if you have a, have a meeting with the, the landlord or the owner, or the, um, uh, the landlord's agent or your business partner, um, and you, you might spend half an hour talking about a particular subject, go back to.
the office, write an email saying, it was good to see you today. We talked about A, B and C, we agreed D, E and F, you're going to do X, Y, and Z, and I'm going to do J, K and L. So there's a, there's a, there's a little record of that meeting so that there's a contemporaneous note to make sure that everybody knows what was said and what was expected.
So even at that level, it's important that there's clarity. Yeah, you're laying out that audit trail, you're giving them an opportunity to come back and say, well, actually, my understanding was different, but you know, we can, we can agree what the, the correct outcome was. That's brilliant. Absolute gold dust.
There are other ways into agriculture, apart from the tenancy, you know, share farming and joint ventures and employment can all form a part, whether it's at the start of a career in agriculture or in addition to a tenancy, what would your message be to younger listeners wanting to build a career in agriculture and then hoping to run day for one day run their farm that haven't considered those.
I am a little concerned that we do place a higher level of expectation on people within the agricultural framework, uh, because there's a, there's almost a, a felt need that people have to be businesses in their own account from day one as new entrants. You know, when you look at people that go to university to study accountancy or law or, or dentistry, we're not expecting them to come out of university and set up their own accountancy practices and legal practices and dentistry.
Inevitably, they will be employed by other people. They will gain experience. They will gain traction. They will begin to network. They will build capital and then become partners or set up their own businesses going forward. And I think we need to consider that same model within agriculture, you know, the, the bringing people in through the employment route so that they, you know, run bigger units.
Play with bigger kit, take risks with other people's capital, if you like, uh, without, without risk to themselves and, and earn that experience and earn a bit of capital and then look to become businesses in their own account, uh, is, is for me, the best approach that people can take, but obviously. Tenancies are always going to be important, but, uh, you know, contract farming is a way that people can edit into the industry.
Share farming where two or more entities are coming together to share on a joint project to farm some land or other types of joint venture and partnerships are all all key. But I really think people do need to find a way of getting that initial experience and exposure. Before they take on units, just moving on.
There's a lot of talk, um, encouraging a greater diversity of people in to agriculture, which demographics are particularly well represented at the moment and how can we encourage a greater diversity of applicants and, you know, what, what would the benefit be to the industry? Yeah, I would say, Peter, there's definitely a bias towards land being let to existing occupiers.
Um, and therefore, you know, we're looking really at the same gene pool of people who have been in the industry for a long period of time. Um, and that's mainly because those individuals come at a much lower risk to the landlords who are offering land. Um, and it's, you know, often, Large under occupiers with low rent and finance charges on their home units who seem to have an overinflated optimism about the extent to which they can spread fixed costs by acquiring additional land at very high levels of rent.
And I think that mindset needs to change because that's something which is really damaging to the wider industry. So can we just, sorry, just to unpick that a little bit for people who perhaps aren't in farming. So you might have a farmer who's got, let's say a 500 acre holding, and they're looking to get some more cattle into their dairy herd.
So they might look at, uh, another holding, which has come up of 80 acres, say for their, their dry stock, their young stock, and they might be able to offer a higher rent for it because they can absorb costs elsewhere. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. So there's always a certain amount of fixed costs. In terms of your machinery and, and everything else that you're using that you can spread across a greater acreage, but there comes a point where you actually.
Hammer your equipment much harder than you would otherwise be doing if you were farming a lower acreage or you're, you're not able to be as timely as you might otherwise have been in terms of your operations and we're actually, you end up with higher levels of costs than you were, you were anticipating and lots of people do lots of tarmac farming where they have to drive large distances between blocks of land.
and don't really factor that into their, their budgeting and their, and their thinking in terms of the way they're, they're, they're, they're progressing. So, yeah, but I mean, there is obviously there's an element of. Being able to some extent to spread fixed costs. But I think the industry seems to have a, an overinflated optimism about that.
There's a hidden cost to it. Yeah, I interrupted you. You were talking, you were going to talk about the benefits of having different people in the industry. Uh, yeah, I think, I think you were, you, you asked me about how we might get a bit more diversity, um, and how we can expand the gene pool, uh, a little bit, a little bit more, which is, which is always really important.
And, um, I mean, one of the ways that we could, we could do that. For example, it's really difficult. I mean, Ben and Josh talked about how they were able to get experience, how they're always involved in the farming community, but when you've got people who are not in farming, not in rural areas, not, not engaged with agriculture, it's really tough for them to find opportunities to get experience and to, to, to get out there and get their feet muddy on farms and, and to understand what it is, whether it's arable or sheep or dairy or beef that ticks their box.
Um, we quite often get calls from. People who are saying, look, I really want to get into the industry. How do I get experience? So one of the ways that we might as an industry start to help. Uh, widen the, the, the diversity is to have some sort of coordinated experience, um, uh, regime, obviously with really good safeguarding arrangements, because you don't want to place people in, in unsafe situations.
And that might be a role that AHDB could do, the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board, or the newly established Institute for Agriculture and Horticulture, which is looking at careers. Um, For a number of people finance is a big issue. Um, and if you're coming into a, to a business, uh, without having the security that Ben and Josh have, have, have now got from their tenancy, it's a big issue.
So, one of the things that we've been asking the government to think about is having a loan guarantee scheme. So, you're not. They're not giving a grant or they're giving, um, a soft loan, if you like, in terms of lower interest rates. But if they could underpin the security of the loan by giving a state backed guarantee, then banks would be more willing to lend money to individuals to come into businesses.
And I think ironically as well, we're talking about new entrants here, but actually the more that we can talk about progression, The more opportunity we'll get for new entrants. So the, what we're concerned about is we create a bit of a conveyor belt. So even if we can get people into farms, where do they go once they, once the shoe begins to, to, uh, to, to, to squeeze.
So Ben and Josh have been able to, you know, get more land pretty quickly, but for a lot of people, that's really tough to find that next rung on the ladder. And the more that we can get more rungs on the ladder, the more opportunities fall out the bottom for new entrants. So, yeah, it's a bug. Helping people get experience, helping people get financing to get started and providing routes to progression.
I think that will, that will drag in a greater diversity of people and county council small holdings as Josh and Ben said are really important in that process. So, making sure that we retain those and we, we, we resource those and give them a., a, a really good basis to continue is, is obviously gonna be very important going forward as well, Cornish Mutual Farming Insurance experts.
Thanks for listening to this bonus episode of Farming Focus. If you haven't already, make sure that you subscribe to the show, wherever you get your podcasts so that you don't miss any episodes in the series.