Peter is joined by CEO at the Tenant Farmers Association, George Dunn, and Cornwall Young Farmers of the Year 2023, Ben and Josh Nicholls, to look at different ways of accessing land.
In this episode Peter talks to George Dunn, CEO at the Tenant Farmers Association and Ben and Josh Nicholls, Cornish dairy farmers who won last year's Cornwall Young Farmer of the Year award. They discuss the future of land access and how new entrants can get on the farming ladder from securing a tenancy to thinking outside the box.
In this second series of Farming Focus we're asking the question 'does my farm have a future?'.
Farming Focus is the podcast for farmers in the South West of England, but is relevant for farmers outside of the region or indeed anyone in the wider industry or who has an interest in food and farming.
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Timestamps
00:01 Cornish Mutual jingle
00:15 Peter Green introduces the episode.
00:58 Peter's Future Farm in 60 seconds.
02:12 Peter introduces today's guests.
02:54 Josh Nicholls introduces himself and his family's business.
04:45 Ben Nicholls introduces himself and how he works with Josh.
07:32 What was it like to win the Young farmer of the year at the Cornwall Farm Business awards?
08:37 George Dunn comments on Josh and Ben's story.
10:30 How many tenancies are secured by new entrants?
11:56 Is there a lot of competition from other land uses but also what are the opportunities for new markets?
14:10 Following the Rock Review, how confident should tenant farmers be?
16:04 Ben explains the nature of their tenancy.
16:54 How do landlords find enthusiastic new tenants?
18:14 What are the barriers for young people getting into farming?
19:36 What help did Josh and Ben get in putting their application together?
20:41 Using your network.
23:21 What would Josh recommend young farmers do to secure a tenancy?
24:16 Showstoppers
26:14 Practical tips from George, Josh and Ben.
27:30 3 words to show what attributes farmers of the future will need.
30:15 Peter rounds up.
Cornish Mutual. Farming insurance experts.
And welcome to episode five of the second series of Farming Focus, the podcast aimed squarely at farmers and other members of the rural community in the southwest, brought to you by Cornish Mutual. As you probably know, I'm your host, Peter Green, and today's podcast focus is land access, especially for new entrants.
What does the future of farming look like in terms of land agreements? Tenanted land, joint ventures, share farming and access to capital. I'll introduce my guests in a bit but to start each episode I'm sharing one thing I'm doing on my farm to help it thrive into the future and I have to do this in less than a minute.
It's time for Peter's Feature Farm. In 60 seconds, start the clock.
Like all recipients of BPS payments, I'm particularly noticing the drop in subsidy this year. This has led me to challenge all farming activities to make best use of my resources going forward. The cattle enterprise has historically been suckler to stores with a handful of beasts finished each year.
Last year, I experimented with selling some calves earlier as well as As expected, they fetched less than they would have as stores 7 months later, but they did return a higher equivalent price per kilogram, and I saved the expense of wintering them and grazing them through spring. In future, I plan to sell all steers as weaned calves and use the acres that would have fed them to keep extra cow calf pairs.
Doing this should allow me to reach my three year target of buying no artificial nitrogen, which I mainly use to get enough good first cut silage to feed weaned calves. This tweak should reduce first cut silage requirements, overwintering costs, carbon footprint, and importantly, increase income per acre.
Allowing me to make best use of the land at my disposal.
Now, staying with land, let's turn to our main topic. Specifically, access to land. And I am thrilled to be joined today by brothers Josh and Ben Nichols, who jointly won the Best Young Farmer of the Year award at last year's Cornwall Farm Business Awards. And George Dunn, who has been chief executive of the Tenant Farmers Association since 1997, and was the recipient of Outstanding Contribution to British Agriculture Award at last year's British Farming Awards.
Josh and Ben, firstly, welcome to the show. Hello. Hi there. Josh, can you introduce yourself and your business, please? Yeah, so I'm Josh. I'm 21 years old in December of 2020. Alongside my brother Ben, and our parents, Liz and Dave. In partnership, we tended for Glin Crest Farm, which is a 187 acre dairy holding.
The previous tenant was milking jerseys here. Um, so we tended for it and we were successful. Gained the, gained the tenancy. We started with literally just 16 cows a few days before Christmas. Um, so that was, uh, interesting. We're now milking 180 with plans to grow to around 250 milkers. We supply rodders through an M& S contract.
So we have a few extra stipulations and audits per year. In total, we built up to roughly around 500 acres, growing maize, barley, grass, and wheat. And we have trial loop ins. And we've brought in a few beans just to trial different protein sources. Right. All of this land is rented from various private landlords and Cornwall Council.
We used to be predominantly contracting, so have a large range of kit to use ourselves. So a lot of our operations are all in house, thankfully. We have two full time relief milkers that assist with milking, alongside plenty of help during busy periods from family and friends. We're both keen members of young farmers, and I'm currently chairman of three milestone young farmers, and that's the main gist of it.
Really amazing. What a story. And there's so much there to learn more about and unpack. That's fantastic. Thank you very much for telling us that Josh and congratulations on winning the tenancy and getting the farm up to that size. Ben, can you tell us a bit more about your farming journey with Josh, please?
Yes, yeah, no problem. Um, we've always both been involved in farming. Um, I've always been out on the farm from about as young as we can remember, basically. I first started working, sort of, properly, um, when I was in secondary school, which was like a Saturday job, um, on a local dairy farm, just by gaining experience and earning a bit of money.
This carried on until I left school, which I then began an apprenticeship at home. Um, which is doing a mix of sort of agricultural, well, arable and contracting, um, with mum and dad. This gradually progressed forward, expanding over time. Once I finished my agricultural apprenticeship, it was then full time at home, and then it was Josh's turn.
So once he left school, he did his apprenticeship. Uh, home and between another local dairy and then it got to the stage, time was going on and we weren't sure the tenancy where we was to was coming on. It wasn't, well, we had two more years left on it and we was wondering what do we do? We either try and retender for it and get a net.
An extension on that, or we carry on and try and find somewhere else to move to. So if I could, that was the tenancy of the holding that you were, your family right with your dad before. Yes. Yeah. That was a 60 acre tenancy, um, farm on the edge of red roof. That was, it was, I think we had two years left on the tenancy and it's sort of, it gets to the stage of uncertainty.
What are we going to do next? It was then that a local dairy farm was coming on to the market. Um, basically the tenant had managed to buy a farm. So then they was obviously going to move out. So we thought sort of long and hard, what do we do? Do we maybe put in for it? Could we apply for it? And could we get the money to do it?
Um, could we find a herd of cows to do it? Could we get a milk contract? So we did manage in the end. We looked through it all and we thought, yeah, we're going to go for it. But first, obviously, we had to secure the milk contract, um, make sure we could get the money. We then did all the tendering and the interviews, um, and we got through all of that.
Luckily, then on the 10th of December, 2020, we found out we were successful. And then by the 23rd of December, 2020, we did our first milk in here. You had a fortnight. Yeah, literally a fortnight. Um, so starting off with 16 jerseys over Christmas. And then we were frantically looking everywhere, basically, for cows.
Cows, quick! We need some cows! Got a contract! Yeah, yeah. And we've built up to, yeah, 180 milkers now, and all the following young stock. Um, and that's where we're to now, basically. Wow. Amazing. That's such a, that's such an awesome story. Um, and, and Josh, what was it like to win the young farmer of the year award at the Cornwall farm business awards?
Yeah, pretty fantastic. Really from the nomination right through to the awards evening itself, it was just brilliant process from meeting the judge and everything. Yeah, I know we really enjoyed it on last year, especially at the end of March, dad had his hip replaced. So literally as everything was starting to get busy.
Dad was then off, so we had to then pick up the slack, essentially. Um, so no, it was truly, yeah, I think that was the best year for us. Bit of a morale boost, almost, uh, to receive that award. And it was brilliant meeting everyone from both in the farming industry and outside of it. So we were sat on the Cornish Mutual table, and speaking to everyone that's involved with farming.
It was brilliant, yeah, to hear what they think about what's going on as well with the world. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, it was, uh, yeah, it's quite, quite an evening, wasn't it? Yes. Yeah, definitely. George, welcome to the show. Thanks Peter. Really good to be here. Thanks to Cornish mutual for allowing me to take part.
Oh, not at all. How do you feel when you hear Josh and Ben's story? Oh, well, I mean, firstly, huge congratulations to both Josh and Ben, both on the progress that they have made in what is a relatively short period of time. And also getting that really important recognition from the prestigious. Cornwall Farm Business Awards.
It's an amazing achievement. So very well done to you both. And I can hear the passion and enthusiasm in your story and in your voices. It is a very unusual situation that I think you find yourselves in. It's very rare for individuals to get The first tenancy that they apply for, it's very unusual for people to acquire the additional acres that you have acquired over such a short period of time and, and to have that really steep trajectory of growth that you have seen.
Um, so, yeah, huge congratulations to you for, for achieving that, because you are unusual in the, in the sector from, from having that level of success so quickly. No, thank you. And George, if we could just set the context of this discussion, am I right in thinking that more than half of farms have some area under a tenancy?
Yeah, well, I think, I think the, the figure is more like two thirds of Uh, farms have some form of tenancy, um, but obviously not all of those farms will be either wholly or predominantly reliant upon that land. So a third of the land in total is under, uh, tenancies, but probably you're looking at more like 40 to 50 percent of farms that will have a reliance upon, uh, the tenanted area, either in whole or in substantial part.
Yeah, so it's a, it's a, it's a large part of the sector. And what proportion of farm tenancies are awarded to new entrants? The best figures that we have on that come from the survey that's carried out annually by the Central Association of Agricultural Valuers. And the figures suggest that around 11 percent of all new tenancies have come onto the market, go to new entrants.
But interestingly, where you have a change in the tenant, where there's a change in occupation, 37 percent of those tenancies go to, uh, go to new entrants. So the difference is that some people are offered tenancies. Where their tenancies have been coming to an end and they're, and they're re offered again.
Um, and if they, you know, the survey also suggests that there was about a thousand tenancies let last year. Um, so probably if you're looking at the, at the figures, you know, probably about a hundred of those tenancies therefore have gone to new entrants. Um, now that's lower than where it was. Um, 20 years ago when we probably had 2000 tenancies, uh, available.
So yeah, it's, it's still a small number, but, um, but 11 percent is, is not too bad. And we're entering a period where there's, you know, lots of, lots of competition for land, not just from the agricultural sector. You know, we've got demands from solar, um, housing development, bioenergy, you know, how does that play into the overall sort of tenanted picture?
If we're thinking about the context of this discussion. Yeah, so there's 2 things I would say, uh, about that. So, firstly, you know, we're, we're keen within the tenant farmers association to make sure that tenants are able to play their full part in those new markets. So, traditionally, farm tenants have been required to use their holdings for agricultural purposes only, but obviously with biodiversity net gain with nutrient neutrality with carbon with renewable energy and timber as well, tree planting.
Uh, and and other environmental outputs. It's very important that the tentative sector has the opportunity to play its part in that. Um, and to to have the ability to diversify out of agriculture where necessary. So, um, we're keen to see that. evolve, but traditionally the tenants have been left out of those markets.
But the other huge issue is making sure that we retain the land within the town's sector so that the land is not resumed by landlords looking to go into. these alternative uses themselves. And we're increasingly seeing situations where landlords are being advised by agents to hold land on a very short term basis so that they can take advantage of the opportunities when they arise.
And you, even today, I had an email from one of our members in my inbox saying that the landlord was, was toying with the idea. of taking the land that they're currently farming back for a sustainable farming incentive scheme, uh, that they think they want to enter on their own. So the tenant has been asked to come up with a very spicy rent to prevent the landlord from, from doing that.
So there are some real issues here for us, both in terms of having the access to those new markets and not being dislocated when landlords decide to go down that route themselves. Now, George, you were part of the tenancy working group that reviewed the rock report into farm tenancies, which the government responded to last year.
Following on from this, how confident should farm tenants be for the future of their businesses? in the context of where we are with new policy and the economic chapter that we're moving into. There are some serious concerns about the way ahead because of the issues around the alternative uses that we are currently seeing people looking to try and take advantage of, like those, um, you know, the tree planting, the carbon, the biodiversity net gain, uh, and those things for landlords are taking land back in hand.
And also, uh, I don't know what length of tenancy Ben and Josh have got and what, what their arrangements are, but we are still operating in an environment where 80 percent of all new tenancies left are for five years or less. So trying to build resilient businesses on the basis of such short term agreements is really difficult, let alone thinking about some of the environmental challenges that are, that are coming forward and need to be addressed.
And obviously the fact that we are still mainly locked into food production, agricultural production. So making sure that we have access to those markets is really important. So. These are things that we've been saying for many years within the Tenant Farmers Association. So it was really great to see the ROC review and Baroness Kate ROC as an independent person, independent review coming in to produce a report, which effectively endorses everything that we've been saying.
And there's now eyes on, uh, with the new farm tenancy forum has been established in the wake of the ROC review. And it's now being charged by government to go through these issues. So yeah, I'm confident we're in a better place, at least to understand what the issues are. Now we need some solutions to address them going forward.
Ben, you've heard, uh, what George had to say there, particularly with daring, it strikes me that you need a certain minimum length of tenancy in order to establish a business and to make sure that there's payback for the amount of infrastructure, uh, the needs to go in at the beginning of a tenancy. How did you feel when you were looking for tenancies about what length of tenancy you would really need to make it pay?
Basically, we worked out we're going to need seven years, well, five to seven years to properly get set up and get everything paid off because obviously we got by the milking parlor when you go in all of the setup. So we was very lucky here. We've managed to get a 20 year term, um, which is obviously, yeah, brilliant.
There's not that many. That long term like, um, so we have got security, which is one thing, which, and then it makes you more interested to invest again in the farm as well. Then precisely, it gives you confidence that you're going to be there for the, for the duration that you need for payback. Cornish Mutual farming insurance experts founded for 1903.
Where can landowners go to find enthusiastic entrepreneurs to potentially partner with? Peter, I really think that there are a large number of those types of individuals out there. I don't think this is an issue of lack of supply of really keen, really enthusiastic, go getting tenants who want to get on.
I think the problem is on the supply side of the, of the land, that there are few opportunities. And when push comes to shove, the landlord's agents. go for the line of least resistance in terms of getting people in who are not going to cause them a too much of a concern in terms of taking a big risk and know that they're going to get the rent paid.
So I think you only have to look beyond, uh, you know, beyond the scope of your usual suspects to see that there is a vast array of people out there. I mean, you look at what young farmers are producing a year on year. You look at the people that the Royal countryside fund is helping with their new entrance program.
You look at what the Henry Plumb Foundation is doing in terms of providing mentoring. Um, there's plenty of really good young people out there. Yes, they will need to be honed. Yes, they will need some mentoring. Yes, they need some business skills, but landlords don't have to try too hard to let land. And I think we just need that mindset to change a little bit.
Ben, would you agree with that? Uh, in this far as, you know, what the barriers are for young people getting onto the farming ladder? I think some of the main, well, in our area, especially, which is probably the same across the whole country, um, is we got cash cropping. So there's an obviously an awful lot of competition.
Sometimes it's easier, perhaps the landlords to put in cash cropping potentially, um, probably quite a bit more money doing that way. The avoidance of debt, that's Large growers who might have ornamental flowers or cauliflower, something like that. Brassicas who are selling them on to large, multiple retailers.
Yes. Yeah. Which obviously then they're taking up a lot of land, which makes it, then it's a lot less land again, available to newer entrants. Now there's obviously the SFI incentive, which is again, our landlords going to look at that and think I could put my whole farm into that, which is obviously great for the wildlife.
But it's again, it's less land for prospective tenant farmers. And then there's also finance. Not everybody can afford to do it. It's obviously, it's a lot of money to get set in any sort of farming, not just dairy farming, beef, arable, whichever. It's an awful lot of outlay and it takes a lot of years to get it back, unfortunately.
George is representing the TFA today, but did you get help from other professionals or mentors when you were putting your application together? So, luckily, mum and dad have been through the process of tenancies, both for our previous farm and in many years prior, and both of those had a higher education in which a module would have been specifically for tenancies.
How to lay out a tender for your business plan and everything right down to just the interview process, even when you're actually sat in that room across from those people interviewing you, how to conduct yourself as such. Um, so, yeah, luckily, mom and dad did have a lot of experience with that. And our land agents were very helpful with providing tips and just some of the people we knew who had been in the position of the interviewers could say.
You know, maybe I saw this in an interview and that person conducted themselves really well. George, outside of that sort of formal, um, the more professional structures, how can young entrepreneurs looking to get started in agriculture, use their network to, to help them on their path? Yeah, so the, I mean, the networks are really important and it's really difficult for those people from outside the industry to, to get that level of, of, of experience and, and certainly we would encourage people who are coming from urban backgrounds and all forming backgrounds to, to seek out the likes of young farmer clubs, to get involved in those networks, to to begin to, to, to build those relationships.
But yeah, just. It's all about people. It's all about relationship. It's all about putting yourself in front of people that can give you opportunities. So those, those networks are gonna be gonna be key. These opportunities certainly aren't gonna fall into your lap. You're gonna have to go and do some, do some digging, and do some groundwork.
And, and that involves you putting yourself out there and, and, and making yourself sometimes quite vulnerable in terms of, uh, you know, your, your positions. Because you gotta, you gotta take the knock back sometimes as well as the, as the positive strokes. And this series of the podcast is, is really trying to focus on looking forward for farming and you know, what, what's on the horizon, George, what do you think the future holds in terms of accessing land for new entrants?
Well, I'm not going to pretend it's going to be a walk in the park, and it's going to be easy. You know, this market isn't suddenly going to become wide open to new entrants. There's a finite stock of land available. There's always many more people looking for land than are offering land to let, so it's going to continue to be a very competitive marketplace.
So individuals need to shine. They need to be prepared to. to, to put the, the hard yards into to make sure that they are able to, to shine in front of those individuals who are offering access. Um, you know, the problems of accessing land for new entrance has been around for, for decades, and we haven't yet been able to crack that particular nut.
So it's partly about changing mindsets in the landlord community and the landlord agent, agent community. We would argue it's partly as well about changing the taxation framework within which landlords offer land so that we are encouraging landlords to let longer and to let to to to new entrance. It's about providing support through things like the loan guarantee scheme.
Um, all of those things will help with the margin, but this is always going to be a challenging environment that people shouldn't just think it's going to be an easy, uh, an easy ride for them. And Ben and Josh, I'll come to you. What would your advice be for people who, who want to pursue a career in farming, but they just aren't sure what to do about taking that first step?
George has talked there about some of the organizations and not least young farmers. Is there anything else that you particularly recommend people think about? Yeah, so to follow on from George, yeah, like I said, Young Farmers, so I'm currently chairman at Three Milestone, and it's a brilliant organization to get out and meet people, and if you're through Young Farmers, they have various talks available, or they can give you information about talks, which you can attend, get talking to other farmers, and literally just talk to as many people as you can whilst you're there, because it may be that you're there.
They know of an opportunity coming up for land, or they may be willing to get to know you better and then take you in on that venture with them sort of thing. So networking is a huge thing. I would say myself. Okay, it's now time for my showstoppers. I try to pull out three nuggets of information that have really struck a chord with me from our conversation.
And as ever, there's been so much that we've covered today, uh, that makes it quite a tricky thing for me to do. Um, There's there's three things which have really jumped out at me and, um, rather fortuitously, they all just about begin with the letter E. So the first E is be enthusiastic, be open to opportunities and, and George used the word sort of persistence, you know, persist, uh, if you first, you know, if, if at first you don't succeed, then, then Try again and keep going, but be enthusiastic and show those prospective landlords what you have to bring to the table.
The second one is build your experience. So this covers a range of different things. There's both the hard and soft skills. So George talked about growing your experience before you. Go to put the application together to again to show what you're bringing to the table, but also this word is kept coming up through the podcast network, you know, grow your network and that that's an experience thing as well as you gain experience, you will grow a network and that network can help you to see opportunities, but also it can help you to see where other people have had success and you can maybe emulate that by sort of taking some tips from what other people have done.
And the final thing, and it's a bit dull, but it's so important. I think, especially in this space is equity, um, assets to put it in a different way. You need to bring something to the partnership with the landlord. You almost certainly will need to be stocking a farm or whatever land it is that you're getting, whether it's on a tenancy or, um, you know, in a, in a JV, a joint venture, or in a share farming agreement.
So build the equity. So those are the three E's. So be enthusiastic, build your experience and grow your equity. Um, and I think that's probably, um, you know, if we can take that away from today's conversation, then, uh, then we're, we're heading in the right direction. Before we go, what one practical tip would each of you give to farmers based on our discussion today?
George, would you like to lead? Okay. My one tip would be to make sure you use your head and your heart. And that they're in balance because you need both to be successful in the pharmy business. You can't do it with your heart alone. You can't do it with your head alone. You need passion and you need realism.
Thank you very much, George. Uh, Ben, I'll come to you first. Yeah. Um, I sort of think stay enthusiastic. Don't just give up, keep at it. Um, we all have good days and we all have bad days, but if you stick to it in the end, it will all pay off. Brilliant. And Josh. Stay open minded. So, you know, there's plenty of ideas.
Sometimes it'll be, I'll just be on the phone to one of my mates speaking about this or that. And they say, why don't you just try it that way instead? And I've never thought of it that way. And then we try it and it works. So, yeah, stay open minded, I suppose. Yeah. So you're using your network and you're being open minded.
That's brilliant. And now for the final question that we're asking everyone this series in three words, what skills or attributes do you think farmers of the, of the future will need to be successful? Um, Georgia, I'll come to you again. Okay. I'm going to be cheeky and have a hyphenated one. So I've got two words into my third one.
So my, my first one is a word I've already used perseverance. really key perseverance. Secondly, flexibility. So being able to change direction, um, when it doesn't go according to what you think it should be going to. So perseverance, flexibility, and my hyphenated one is, Margin focused, if it's not profitable, don't do it.
Yeah. And that comes back to the head and heart thing as well, doesn't it? You know, sometimes we won't really want to do something, but if it just doesn't add up then Absolutely. I have so many conversations with people about accessing land and what rent they should pay. And you try and give them a bit of advice and then they say, well, I'm not going to get it for that level of rent.
And you say, well, if it means that much to you, you want to lose money at it. Then fine, but actually what's the point if you're not going to be profitable? So we need to give them that I focus on being margin focused. Love it. Love it. That really speaks to the accountant in me. Josh, I'll come to you for your three.
Um, adaptability. So don't be afraid to change or try something different. Almost at the same stroke bravery. So again, if it's, it might be a big jump, but just try it. It may, you may, you may have to go all in, but it might be worth it. And then positivity, there's the future is bright in farming, and hopefully we can all help it, help it move in the right direction.
So stay positive. Brilliant. That really speaks to your mindset. Um, you know, and how it's better to regret the things that you have done rather than the things that you haven't, you know, give it a go. That's brilliant. And Ben? Uh, yeah, goals, giving you something to work towards and eventually give you a sense of achievement once you achieve them, and remember not everything is achieved quickly, it can take years.
Communication, we need to communicate better, um, with the public and potential buyers of our products. showing how high the standard of British produce is and hopefully that will help us to strive even better returns, um, and willingness to learn new ways and try out new methods and routes in agriculture, as well as not forgetting tried and tested methods.
Wow. I'm going to need a few minutes to let that, uh, that sink in. That's it for today's episode. Um, a huge, huge thank you to my guests, to George Dunn from the tenant farmers association to Ben Nichols and Josh Nichols. Um, it has genuinely been a real privilege to, to talk to the three of you. There's been so much, uh, you know, to, to, to go through and to compute and to think about, but, um, it's been, it's been so, so good.
Uh, so thank you very much. Pleasure to hear more from George. Make sure you listen out from next Tuesday for the bonus episode to accompany today's podcast. The bonus episodes give you a chance to take a deeper dive into each subject. Then we'll be back the following Tuesday with another full episode in which we'll be talking about adding value.
If you have any questions you'd like us to ask in that episode, please email podcast at Cornish mutual. co. uk. Please subscribe to the show on whatever podcast platform you use, but also give us a rating and a review. This really helps in encouraging other people to subscribe. Also tell your friends and neighbors about the podcast or indeed anyone you know who has an interest in anything rural.
Check out the show notes for more information on today's episode which includes the link to our podcast disclaimer. You've been listening to Farming Focus brought to you by Cornish Mutual. I've been Peter Green and until next time it's goodbye from me and everyone in the Cornish Mutual team. Cornish Mutual.
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