Host Peter Green is joined by Tom Tolputt who is the co-founder and consultancy director of Terrafarmer and Professor Andy Neal who is a microbiologist in soil systems and research scientist at Rothamsted Research. They discuss soil health in the context of the South West of England and ask whether farm resilience starts with thinking about soil?
Peter Green is joined for the first episode by Tom Tolputt and Professor Andy Neal to discuss soil health in the South West. What state are the soils of the South West in and what could be done to improve them? How can better soils make your farm more resilient?
In this series we are focusing on the topic of resilience.
Farming Focus is the podcast for farmers in the South West of England.
For more information on Cornish Mutual visit cornishmutual.co.uk
For our podcast disclaimer click here.
Timestamps
00:01 Cornish Mutual jingle.
00:06 Intro music.
00:15 Peter Green introduces the series.
01:25 Cornish mutual jingle.
01:34 Peter introduces today's subject - soil and soil health - and today's guests.
02:29 Tom and Andy come in.
02:42 Tom talks about how he got into soil and farm consultancy.
03:21 Andy discusses his background.
04:17 Cornish Mutual jingle.
04:24 What does resilience mean for Tom?
05:03 What does resilience mean for Andy?
06:00 A shift towards soil being the most important element - what has caused that shift in focus? Why is it important to discuss soil first when thinking about resilience?
07:52 Tom discusses the importance of soil and building biology within the soil.
09:05 Grazing is associated with higher organic matter in soil. There are benefits of grazing in rotation for the function of soil.
09:56 Why did Tom take the decision to go organic?
11:37 What is the state of our soils in the south west?
15:12 Could we be doing more to improve soils in the south west? Andy explains the role of tillage.
16:40 There are instances when ploughing helps.
18:32 Rothamsted's long term experiments.
20:20 Cornish Mutual jingle
20:31 Carbon, soils and organic matter - are they the same thing?
23:18 Resilience comes from the driving of microbial processes.
23:43 Carbon credits.
27:33 Understanding where we are at the moment and taking stock - the importance of this. Getting baselines and practical steps to achieve this.
30:00 Andy's tips for taking soil samples.
31:17 The importance of context. Sandy soils and soil texture.
33:27 Tom discusses different soil types.
34:44 What can farmers do more of?
36:05 Andy reiterates that soil is a living system.
37:55 Peter sums up the podcast. - understanding your farm and your soils; know your context; earning the right to plough, perennial cropping; building organic matter is a slow thing but what we need to do.
39:09 The cream tea question...
40:22 Peter rounds up.
Farming Focus
Episode 1 – Resilience and Soil Health
Transcript
Jingle
Cornish Mutual. Farming Insurance Experts.
Peter Green
Hello, and welcome to the very first episode of Farming Focus, the new podcast coming to you from Cornish Mutual. If you're a farmer from Cornwall, Devon Somerset or Dorset, then this podcast is the one for you. Although if you're farming somewhere else or involved in agriculture more broadly or just interested in anything to do with farming, then you are also more than welcome.
I'm your host Peter Green, and as well as having a background in various finance and business roles, I run a grassland farm near Truro, selling store cattle and our own beef boxes direct to consumers, as well as having, uh, a number of other diversification projects. Across all the episodes in this first series, we are looking at one key question.
How can farmers in the South West of England be more resilient? And what does resilience in the context of farming really mean? We'll be exploring everything from farming practices to carbon biosecurity, farm safety and engagement with the public. So please like and subscribe on whichever platform you use to follow our progress through the series.
Jingle
Cornish Mutual Farming Insurance Experts - Founded by Farmers for Farmers in 1903.
Peter Green
Today's focus is soil. It's the foundation of everything we do in farming. What state are our soils in across the South West? How much does farm resilience have to do with soil health and what things are farmers doing to make sure that their soils are more resilient?
To reflect on all of this and more, I'm joined by two guests who are perfectly placed to answer these questions. First up, we've got Tom Toit, who is the co-founder and consultancy director of TerraFarmer, who are an independent regenerative and biological farm consultancy, advising UK farmers on sustainable farming systems to build soil health from the ground up.
I'm also joined by Professor Andy Neal, who is a microbiologist in soil systems and a research scientist at Rothemsted Research. Gents. Hi there. How are you doing? [I'm very well, thank you. Good morning]. Good, good, good. Tom, Andy, it's great to have you on the podcast. Um, first of all, could you tell us a little bit about how each of you came to be doing what you are today, Tom?
Tom Tolputt
First, I suppose just from observing, um, things around us, the farmers that were engaging with good grazing, p practices seemed to be more profitable. The soils that were being plowed up in mixed farming systems had. More worms in them. People were using less fertilizers and getting better yields. So I think the observation of work, the joy of consultancy and, and working with farmers is, you know, you, you, you walk with 'em, you observe, you discuss things with them, and, and this started become sort of quite profound, especially in the sort of last 10 years as I guess all our interests and my interest has certainly been peaked in this area.
Peter Green
And Andy?
Andy Neal
Oh, it was a very long unwinding road. My first degree was in marine biology. I went off, I ran away from Devon to be a marine biologist, and after doing various things, I realized there were no jobs in it. So I, I got a postdoc that was in deep subsurface microbiology, and I sort of slowly worked my way to the surface and ended up at Roth instead, where I, I really didn't have much of a background in soil science, and I think.
To some extent there's a benefit in that. And I just happened to fall in with a bunch of physicists and hydrologists and chemists and started to see soil in a very different way, and started to understand soil as a house for microbes. And it's just fascinated me ever since. And the more I know, the more, more I love it.
Peter Green
Oh, that's fascinating. And I think as a former physicist, I can say that we're always glad just to be, you know, friends with anyone, to be honest.
Andy Neal
Particularly biologists, because yeah, we tell you where all the interesting stuff's happening.
Jingle
Cornish Mutual. Farming insurance experts.
Peter Green
Tom, I'm going to start by asking you the question we're asking everyone when they come on this first series of the podcast. What does resilience mean for you and specifically in a farming context?
Tom Tolputt
I think resilience for me is just to help farmers land for the unforeseen. I think one of the things we're going experience is farmers and agriculturalists and we're witnessing at the moment, we had flash floods three weeks ago and we've got baked soils now.
We used to have drizzle and the equational fine day. We are starting to see a much more extreme environment. So resilience for me is helping people work towards building a, a farm business that that's able to cope with those scenarios. Hey, and
Peter Green
Andy?
Andy Neal
Well, I suppose. With my working hat on resilience. Means sort of continual function in the face of stresses, either individual ones or combinations of multiple stresses.
When scientists get together and talk about resilience, we often imagine a sort of three-dimensional landscape, rather like the landscape of Devon with sort of hills and and valleys. And we sort of think of systems as marble sitting in down in the valleys. You stress them, they kind of move around in those valleys.
So something that returns quite easily to its natural state or the rate at which things change to different states can all be considered resilience. But really it's about the persistence of function as you perturb or stress systems.
Peter Green
Yeah, that's really interesting. We're, we're already starting to get a bit of a theme here, aren't we?
Of having moved away from a natural sort of stasis, I guess, and perhaps needing to come back to it. It feels to me like over the last, um, few years, ruminant farmer in particular have maybe been encouraged to shift from thinking my livestock are the biggest indicator of, of success on my farm, to I must manage my forage and in particular grass well to maximize output.
To the soil is the most important thing on this farm. We've gone from that sort of macro level down the funnel into this sort of micro level where we're looking or we're being encouraged to look more at soil. Assuming that's a fair summary and do say if it's not, what do you think's caused that shift in focus and why is it important that we are talking about soil first when it comes to discussing resilience?
Andy Neal
Well, partly cause it keeps me in a job. But, but if you, if you think about it, soil performs a lot of really important functions for agriculture, right? It stores water. Mm. It cycles nutrients. It provides plant roots access to those. And if those start to go wrong, then a lot of other things further up will, will go wrong.
You were just talking about livestock. Well, if your grass isn't healthy, if your grass isn't putting on biomass like it should, well then, you know, you've got to buy in or you've, you've got a load of very hungry cattle. The soil is really where it will start. You start looking after that. Other things then take care of themselves.
And as Tom, when we were ask, talking about resilience, you know, good, healthy soils will not flood good healthy soils will drain, but they will hold a lot of water in there, which means that when we start hitting these very hot, dry periods, the grass. Or whatever crop you're growing has a much more easy access to that water stored in the soil and will not be stressed as much as if the soil was not holding too much water.
So really, I think the resilience of soil is the basis upon which a very successful business can be built. That's why I think we are starting to focus much more effectively on soil.
Peter Green
It feels very much to me like we need to be putting soil in pride of place and, you know, treating it like an extension of our herd.
Really?
Tom Tolputt
Yeah. I mean the, the more and more that we, we learn about the soils, the microbes in the soil, the healthier the soil, the higher the nutrients within the forestage that are produced. You've got this wonderful symbiosis. Building the biology of the soil, building the diversity within soil. You've got richer, more nutrient dense crop.
The forages, even the subsequent grain crops or veg may be that's grown after that. We've got higher bricks levels in these things and, and I think it's a really important narrative that we understand that mixed farming, which the Southwest has been so good at, we have such a resilience, or it's much higher globally in terms of all.
Organic matter in biodiversity, the DNA of the soil that we have really should be applauded. And I think we've been through this sort of terrible period where livestock farmers have been chastised because of various calculations about methane productions. Methanes a whole nother subject for another day.
But as we understand and Andy's work and what we are seeing practically within farms where you build biology, where you build this resilience, build organic matter, you get healthier crops from less. Harmful nutrients and you are building food for a future generation because nutrient density, food quality is gonna be very important as we try and produce more food from less area or, or degrade less land bringing livestock into it.
Andy Neal
I think you're right in everything we look at North wic, uh, on the farm platform there, that. That grazing is always associated with higher organic matter in soil, so it's not a one-way system. Actually, there are benefits of having grazing within rotations or grazing on past for organic matter and the whole function of soil as a result.
Peter Green
Yeah, and just to try and clarify this and sort of pull this point out is clearly as possible. When I was doing a bit of prep for this podcast, I was listening to Tom speaking on a different platform, and he was saying that those soils that. Had been treated more with organic manure, farm a manure than with bagged fertilizer.
The profile of sugars and proteins and things like that in the plants were better in inverted coms. Is that too simple or Tom is, is that a fair assessment?
Tom Tolputt
Part of the reason we went to look at organic farming at the start is when we were analyzing a lot of forage in the late nineties and we were encouraged by the company we're working with to use less nitrogen.
And as we use less nitrogen, we produced forage of higher dry matter, slightly lower proteins, but higher sugars. It was a much more balanced feed. And we did, we cut back lunch and over um, About two and a half years and in the end took the pl the decision to go organic because we were producing a more balanced feed of higher nutrient density.
I've worked on the ZOS where they can grow huge crops of, you know, 18 tons of dry matter forage yields. But the bricks levels within those crops were the lowest I've ever imagined, and that soils. Would literally blow away if you left them uncovered. Well, and we don't have that in, in, in the west of Britain.
We have livestock, we have mixed farming, we have rain most of the time. But the science is really, you know, we, we mustn't be hard on our four bears. Um, I think the, the, the, the sciences are really only starting to understand the cycle. The, the fact that the, when the plant is photosynthesizing, it's pushing sugars out to the soil.
The soil is. Is putting this nectar out into the soil to feed the biology, the bacteria, and they're moving minerals and things back to the plants. But this is all a very young science and it's a very exciting time as as we start to see, navigate this change.
Peter Green
It is. Absolutely. I can absolutely see that.
But if you listen to some of the well-known farmers and ranchers at the vanguard of regenerative agriculture, perhaps in the US in particular, they're decrying the state of soil worldwide. Even going as far as to say that we've only got two generations of harvests left, it seems like a bit of a generalization and possibly hyperly.
Gents, you are looking at soils across the southwest every day. What's the state of Vasos down here in the southwest of the uk?
Tom Tolputt
I think we should be applauded. We have organic matters that range from four to 16%. We have incredible biodiversity. A globally, a, a soil of 1% is considered a healthier soil, and yet we have microbial mass, we have organic matter, we have carbon.
We have a very functioning system. And again, some of these tests are only just being developed as we speak. So the, the knowledge wasn't there. But really when you look at soil for global perspective, the, uh, the soils of the Southwest and the West of Britain are in very, very good health.
Peter Green
Why is that? You know, really simplistically, is it because we get a load of rain from the west.
Tom Tolputt
Yeah, I think part of it is the geography. So if you look at the soil biology maps of the world, rain and not extreme heat are very important parts of building biology and building organic matter. I think due to the topography, we have hills and valleys and and flatter areas. You've got a mixed farming system.
We can't grow crops on the H sides of some of our hills. And so livestock and integration of livestock has probably always been part of that, that that process. So as you, as you've got this sort of mixed systems, um, you've got grazing, you've got some cropping within your system. I think these things help hugely.
We, we are not a big. Flat plan where it's very easy to to grow our, um, aral crops on a continuous basis. So we've got a situation where mixed farming weather, and, and topography has really helped farmers maintain healthy soil systems.
Peter Green
And by mixed farming, we're obviously talking about aral as the market garden veg alongside livestock, but that livestock is one of the key points, isn't it?
You know, the fact that there's livestock means that we need to have grassland with its root structures and the way it grows and the way it improves the soils. Is that fair, Tom?
Tom Tolputt
It's very fair, both Andy and I looking at the results we're seeing perennial cropping is really, really important to all health.
Having saw cover reducing tillage and having the ability to have that grazed and fertilized with natural organic manures is a really restorative process to saw health. We've seen instances where earthworms have tripled introducing a perennial crop into an arable rotation within 18 months. The soil.
Can repair itself very, very quickly. But perennial cropping the sort of diverse nature of a lot of meadows as we are getting more and more science to back up, um, herbal lays and things. With this diversity, we're getting healthier and healthier soils. From that situation, people are integrating herbal lays into aral rotations.
For the restorative effects people are using less tillage to a established aral seabed following an a herbal lay. So you've got this. Triple win of reduced inputs, reduced cultivations and healthier soils, building organic matter. So livestock and rain and good mixed farming systems seem to have a very beneficial effect on soil health and permanent pastures have held on to truly globally high levels of organic matter because they haven't had tillage impacts and things.
Peter Green
So those are some of the things which give the southwest of the UK a, a competitive advantage. Um, and you mentioned there just a, a, a few things such as perennial cropping, keeping ground cover and, and introducing diverse lays such as herbal lays, which are a lot of listeners to this podcast will be familiar with.
Andy, perhaps coming from you, what, what other things could we be doing better to further improve soils here in the southwest?
Andy Neal
I suppose the biggest effect we see and, and we've, we've seen this across Cornwall and we've certainly seen it on our own farm platform at at Rooster, that tillage is probably the most destructive thing that, that anyone can, could do to their soils.
And if you plot organic carbon content or organic matter content, Against the time since the field was last plowed. There's a very strong and consistent linear relationship. The longer the plow has not entered the field, the greater the organic matter stocks in those soils. So I think, you know, I, I would like to try and change the way we think about plowing.
It's not banning it completely, but about using it very carefully and judiciously and only using it when it's absolutely necessary. And if there are other ways of solving a problem that don't involve. Plowing. I think that would go a long way to just improving the soil. And I would agree with Tom. I think our soils around here are in a good state because we are in a very fortunate position, but where we still have a lot of tillage going on, I think that could be reduced.
And there are new technologies, new ways of thinking that are allowing that to happen now. And so I'm certainly learning from the lot of the farms. I talk about how farming can take place without necessary plowing every year. And I think that's an important way to go.
Peter Green
So Tom, there's a key phrase that I think I've heard you mentioned before.
Tom Tolputt
Yeah, there is, and, and I think it's an important one because there is instances where ground is compacted or has been trampled or has had a bad weather event or something on it, where plowing will alleviate that, will, will a, the soil. We, we, we've, we've still gotta remember that the soil is an ecosystem and needs to breathe, so compaction.
Compaction is probably one of the major robbers within production across the southwest. There's a great phrase I've sort of adapted from Gary Zimmer who said he, he had this thing you had to, you had to earn the right to be, or organic. But I think as farmers, we need to earn the right to plow. If you've had a perennial crop in there, if you've put manures in and if you plow sensitively, plowing at nine or 10 inches, plowing Cornish subs, soil backup, and, and, and, and chill, it is really not a way you need to be.
Think of the old horse plows and things like that where they plowed at two or three inches and they put the, it all from an aerobic area underneath itself, but still in that aerobic part of the soil. So I think farmers can, can help justify their plowing by, by feeling they've aren't the right to it.
They've, they've had a perennial crop in, they've put some lovely. Compost and manures back on those fields, the lay is tired. You know, we can't afford to have unproductive lay any of these scenes can help you justify it, but I think continuous ploughing without any sort of reparation, it, it, well, we, we know it.
You know, the, the arable fields on our farm are exactly half the organic matter of the permanent pasture, and that's just through tillage that that's happened.
Peter Green
Could you say that again please, Tom? Just, just, just for anybody who didn't quite catch that, please. The last bit.
Tom Tolputt
Yeah. I mean, if we look at our farm platform, where we, where we've got, um, permanent pasture and arable in side by side situations.
The, the, the permanent pasture is a 8% organic matter. The, the arable is at 4% organic matter. And, and I think that gives you an indication of potentially the, the, the, the organic matter we've lost over the last 70 or 80 years. And that's
Peter Green
just over a hedge for, you know, too much literally
Tom Tolputt
over a hedge.
Peter Green
Andy…
Andy Neal
Well, at Rothamsted, I, I can beat that Tom. Um,
Peter Green
it's not a contest, gents
Andy Neal
It’s a contest in how we can destroy our soil. So I, I mean, Rothamsted has these wonderful long-term experiments that have been, um, running for 170 years now in those, the soil in Haren should. Normally hold about 80 tons per hectare.
Peter Green
So Harington, we're talking southeast…Hertfordshire.
Andy Neal
Yeah. Dry, hot, lots of arable, very few animals and very little organic matter around the soil should hold about 80 tons per hectare. Under, oh, under a permanent pasture. They hold that. A lot of the long term experiments, um, the soil now holds about 20 tons per hectare. So, uh, 60 tons over that 170 years per hectare in the top 30 centimeters has been lost to the atmosphere.
Now what's particularly interesting is you, if you have to hand 35 tons of from, uh, composted manure, To, to put on per hectare every year that you can maintain that 80 tons per hectare. So plowing isn't necessarily negative, but you have to think, do I have sufficient organic matter around me to replace what's gonna be a loss when I plow?
Mm-hmm. Because we know that if you do. Then you can maintain your carbon stocks very effectively, but who has 35 tons per hectare of organic matter to throw across their farm? No one. Yeah. And we only do it on very small plots in carpenter. So it's, it's a balance of, I know I've got a plow for X, Y, and z.
I know the consequences are gonna be a loss of organic matter. I need to think about how I'm gonna replenish that quickly. Where am I? You know, I might normally put five tons on. Perhaps this time I should put 15 tons if I can get ahold of it. So it, you know, there are trade-offs all across the farm, and this is just another one.
Jingle
Cornish Mutual. Farming insurance experts. Founded four farmers by farmers in 1903.
Peter Green
And Andy, we, in that conversation there, we've talked about soils, carbon and organic matter. And they feel like they're often spoken about interchangeably. Do you think that's fair? I mean, it can sometimes feel like we're chasing a silver bullet that's gonna help us sequester the most carbon.
And there's this promise of untold riches for those who are able to sell carbon credits at some place and point in the future. Um, But to what extent should we be focusing on sequestration and to what extent should we be focusing on carbon cycling? And, and maybe just a bit of a quick overview of what's, what's the difference in, in these terms?
Well, there are about eighteen questions there!
Andy Neal
Yeah. Right. Andy, I'll have a go. My, my bias is towards, uh, carbon cycling. Uh, and I'll tell you why in a minute. So, when an organic matter enters soil, A lot of it is used as fuel for the microbiology. So just like all of us on this podcast, we all need to eat and we all need to ingest nutrients and biomass so that we can build more biomass.
And the microbiology in the soil is no different. A lot of what enters the soil is used for that purpose. Some of it, or whether a lot of it end up being respired and goes back to the atmosphere, but what's left in the soil ends up as microbial bodies, and when they die, it creates something. And a term that's only been used for a few years, I suppose, called Neros, which is all the bits of dead microbiology in the soil.
And we know that this is actually what becomes trapped in soil, which is the term we use for. Sequestration where organic matter becomes bound to mineral surfaces and then gets hidden as structure gets formed, rather like the mortar in a brick wall sticking inorganic particles together, and it forms this lovely soil architecture, which is really the basis for soil health, in my opinion.
So you only get that by driving biological activity, by pumping organic matter through the soil. If you're really chasing sequestration, it will follow, but I think the main focus should be about feeding the soil. And I know Tom has a lot to say about whether you should be selling that sequestration. So I'm gonna pass the bat onto you Tom…
Peter Green
So just, just before Tom jumps in on that one, which I really want him to do, I just to clarify and to make sure I've got, got my head around this. Sounds there, like the sequestration will follow, but we just need to make sure that we have healthy soils, which are living and are cycling that carbon because that that sequestration is almost a byproduct of that carbon cycling.
Andy Neal
Exactly. And actually as we are talking about resilience, All the resilience comes from not the sequestration, but the driving the microbial processes, because that's what creates all the good stuff in soil. The sequestration is a byproduct of creating that good environment.
Peter Green
Okay, so, so Tom. Basically we're, we're just waiting for this, this, this silver bullet with all the carbon credits, aren't we?
Tom Tolputt
We, we are. And I think, um, but we've gotta be very careful what we, what we must still re remember and what we must focus on is, is, is building organic matter, is the byproduct of good farming practice. So, you know, all that's happening is by reducing tillage, by putting duct biodiversity, removing or reducing harmful chemicals by possibly reintroducing livestock.
You are just building better biological cycles as you've got biological cycles increasing. Your organic MA matter can rise. Evolution is wonderful. The, the, the pause for absorbing, um, CO2 are on the underside of a leaf. So you've gotta remember there's this constant cycle of, of, of carbon things within the soil.
So what goes up can come down. But over a period of time with good management practice and without major weather events, you will start to raise organic matter. We are seeing on farms, now farms that we, you wouldn't necessarily expect, you know, dairy farms, you know, you we're reducing chemicals and, and changing grazing rotations.
But we must sort of remember the j raising organic matter will add this resilience to your business. Now we can measure it now, and it's very important that farmers do take a baseline because you can't. Measure or manage what you don't know and, and getting a good understanding of the organic matters within your, or the, so the soil health and nutrients within your farm is, is a very important process cuz it can help you make better business decisions.
But building organic matter is a slow process. Um, and, um, taking a baseline understanding where it is, understanding that everybody else in the world wants your carbon. So please do not let it go without a fight. You know, please, this is a very important re um, resource to you. If the carbon markets are sensible and they reflect good practice, there is an opportunity for farmers to build some financial resilience in their business within this carbon thing.
You know, this carbon exchange, if we build organic matter, And if we first offset the farmer's own carbon footprint, because this is crucial as well, we mustn't sell carbon credits that we are not party to. We why absolve the, the conscience of big business when as farmers we are getting chastised for, for having cows and producing healthy soils.
Know what your soil carbon is, know what your carbon footprint is. Revisit that initial analysis in a few years time and with good practice and, and, and, and fair weather. You've probably raised the organic matter in your soils. You've raised the resilience within your soils, the biological cycles. At that point, and this is why I think it's, we, we take this long-term view of it.
Most of what we've talked about today is good long-term farming that I think one of the wonderful byproducts of, of regenerative farming is instead of looking annually at our soils, we're looking them on an ongoing, on a, on a, on on a perennial basis because it will take a perennial process to rebuild this organic matter.
But in a few years down the, down the line, there could well be value, value, a very strong value to carbon in the soils. But we, you can't sell it if you don't know what it is and you can't really improve it, um, until you understand these cycles and things, which, and I think the knowledge is changing, played sensitively and played right.
It certainly has the opportunity to add to. Potentially put pensions or succession planning within a business. But it, it's, it's a very young, everybody talks about it, about the wild West. It is like the wild west. There's all sorts of promises being made, but like last summer's drought, carbon can go up as well as down, and it's a long-term trajectory.
We've gotta look at not an individual year. So, so don't think of it as a, as a flat of gold in the pants. An end game.
Peter Green
Yep. So there's lots of promise ahead, but let's not get carried away. Let's not sell the family silver, you know, on the promise of, of carbon credits. Let's take our time. And you, you're talking there particularly Tom, about.
Understanding where we are sort of taking stock and it's something that actually I think farmers aren't always that good at doing because we're so busy doing things on farm every day that have to be done yesterday. What can farmers do, particularly thinking about your typical farmers in the southwest of, of the uk, what can they do to get that baseline You are talking about, to understand their soil carbon, to understand their carbon footprint.
What practical steps can they take?
Tom Tolputt
First thing is to start taking sore samples. But most importantly when you take your samples, if you do take it in a field, is to remember where you've taken that sample or to market somehow and to understand how deep you took that sore sample. Because a lot of corn soils, you know, there's not much.
Soil below 5, 6, 7 inches. We can do this with machinery. We can do this by hand, but, but if, if you've got an interest in, in the future, I think the more rigor you can put to your sampling, the better. The next stage of that is once you've got the results, is to sit down with somebody and discuss them, because so many sore results are received and put into the filing cabinet.
And that's that the sore results can be your roadmap to the future pro productivity of the farm if your results are very low. Then you've got opportunities to grow more stuff on your farm. If you, if your results are very good, then you've got the, the ability to reduce inputs on your farm, you know? And, and, and this is another thing.
So, so they must be seen as an investment, the more accuracy. Possibly using the SFI as as a machine or as a, as a tool to, to enable you to afford this sort of process. But we've seen very low take up on SFI so far, and to take one or two in-depth soil samples, which will indicate deficiencies in trace elements, sulfur, calcium being very typical ones in the southwest, and a lot of farms, which will also putting them into balance would help balance and help build that biology that we've been talking about.
Peter Green
Yeah. And so Andy. Tom's talked there about the importance of soil samples and, you know, thinking about trace elements and getting maybe GPS locations. Is there anything else that you can think of that makes a particularly good or a good set of, of, of, um, soil samples and, you know, what, what do farmers need to be doing in terms of building up a profile of their farms soil over a number of years, rather than just thinking about one year at a time?
Andy Neal
Hmm.
I think measuring soil organic matter and understanding your organic carbon as a, as a part of that. It's probably the one thing that will tell you where your soil is, is at from a sort of health perspective because so much. Flows from the amount of organic matter available in the soil. Measuring is undoubtedly extremely important, but also considering what you measure.
If you just measure a field that'll give you a number, it'll give you a value of organic matter, but it won't tell you. Is that a good one? Is that a bad one? For my farm, for my soil type, for my location. So I would also always recommend finding some, some soil that is, Uh, neglected has been unmanaged for centuries.
Cause that's where you are likely to get a good idea of what the capacity for soil to store carbon is.
Peter Green
Yeah. So Andy, I mean, I heard you talk, uh, recently about sandy saws. So my grandfather's farm overlooked, um, some Michael's man near Marion and here's Sandy saws could grow up to three crops in a good year.
And I'd always thought of those, those soils as being sort of gold standard soils compared to our soils at home on black granite. You know, some of the fields got. Two inches of, of topsoil do we need to be thinking about food production and, and where we grow and what we grow.
Andy Neal
Yes. And and I I am often covered after talks by saying, you just told me that my sandy soils are unhealthy, and, and I think.
I could be criticized by not being very involved. I didn't say that. No, but that's what people tell me. And I, and I, and I probably misspeak. I what I mean is if your focus and a lot of focus and the focus of this discussion has been about getting organic matter into soil, then. Sandy soils will not do a very good job of that because of various physical properties.
They don't hold much organic matter. They're not good places to sequester soil.
Peter Green
It's not their fault. It's the way they were made sort of thing.
Andy Neal
Exactly. And now, and often when I'm giving a talk, I'm talking about sort of, um, soil as a dynamic and adaptable system as my perception of what a healthy soil is.
Now, sands are not adaptable. You can. Put lots of organic matter in there. Most of it is respired and very little is sequestered. So that's what I mean when I say that they're not particularly good for sequestering carbon. But of course, as you've just pointed out, they're very good in other ways because you can, you can get, uh, machinery onto them much sooner than you can.
Heavy clay soils, which are very good at sequestering carbon. So it's horses for courses. And I agree with you. It's about. Doing the right thing in the right place. Mm-hmm. And that also, the other thing I meant to say about knowing the context of where you are is if you've got part of your farm that's Sandy and part of your farm, that would be a better place to.
Or sequester organic matter. Perhaps you should use what organic matter you've got on those heavier soils because that's where you're gonna make a difference. Don't use it on your sandier soils where you are. You know, you will lose most of it to the atmosphere because of respiration. So I, yeah, I think understanding this dynamic between the texture of your soil and the amount it can sequestered starts to inform you about how you manage the organic matter.
You have to hand.
Peter Green
Yeah. Yeah, that's a really useful thought, Tom. Uh, any sort of quick response from you on, on what Andy said there?
Tom Tolputt
I think it's very fair. I mean, Sandy swords are, are much more difficult. Uh, you know, our Cornish loams are very forgiving soils, but we do dry out and as we are experiencing at the moment.
So it is horses for courses. Um, I think. It could be a very exciting time as we start to understand. I mean, some of the work that's going on at Roth Nstead in, in terms of, of understanding soils, will, will, will help people with, with light soils, with sandier soils, build fertility over a period of time.
But it, but it is, it's targeting the, what nutrients you've got on utilizing the most to, to get the best result and, and that's gonna be very important. Park, you know, you play to your strengths. If you have got that light sandy soil, from the resilience point of view, you plant crops and you plant, um, things which are suitable for that soil to get the most out of them.
Peter Green
Mm-hmm. So if we're thinking about what farmers in the Southwest can do to, to make their businesses more resilient, With focusing on soils, it's not such, so much about doing less of any one thing. It's tr it's trying to do a little bit more of different things. So we've talked there a little bit about soil sampling and knowing your, your farm.
Uh, we've talked there about perennial crops and maybe looking at diversity. Is there anything else you can think of, Tom, that you just sort of suggest that farmers listening, maybe think about doing more of?
Tom Tolputt
I think. We'd all encourage farmers to just to get to know their soils together. I mean, a lot of people are amazed to hear that there's probably nearly the same biomass in livestock below the soil as a good grazing farm has above the soil.
And just to create that narrative change that you've got an ecosystem below your feet that if you work with it and start to understand it. You can increase production, you can sequester a carbon and build resilience. Coming right back to where we started, it's really getting to know your soils and playing to its strengths.
A sandy soil, a heavy clay soil, a nutrient deficient soil, they're all different, but it's all within the farmer's capability to know that soil, to get to know it, and to improve its lot, and ultimately the lot of the farm that that's above it, the narrative is changing, but it's not brown stuff. Anymore.
It's its own ecological environment and, and play to it. You know, we, we are working with seaweeds and molasses and minerals and things. It sounds like a more like a health campaign than it does like a crop nutrition plan. But that's where we're, that's where it'll go. The science of the next 20 years is going to be just incredible when we really get to start understanding this.
Peter Green
It's a really, really exciting field actually, isn't it? Sorry. No pun intended. But it, there's so much that's going to come and this is my point that I was making earlier on about, you know, The biological age that we're coming into. Andy, just sort of as we head towards the end of the podcast, are there any more points that you'd like to add more broadly when we're thinking about soil resilience in Southwest?
Andy Neal
Well, I, I, I think I would just reiterate soil is, is a living system. We used to think of it very chemically and very physically. We now know that it's a very biologically active system, and if you have the right texture, it adapts to your management. It needs feeding and I think that's the one thing I would like to get across here is that constant foods, so whether that's cover crops or pastures or inter, you know, using inter rows to grow some, we used to think that it was all about to keeping the soil covered and protecting the surface, but actually it's really about constantly driving organic matter.
Into soil keeps that biology turning things over and creates the structure that we know gives resilience. There are lots of, and I think the beauty is there are lots of ways of doing that. That suit individual farmers and individual man, you know, management and philosophies. It's not a one size fits all thing.
There are lots of ways of doing this and I, I think just getting across the idea that the soil needs feeding would be most beneficial.
Peter Green
Yeah. So keep those roots alive. Keep them fed. Whether that's worth manure, whether that's by having a companion crop Yeah. That, you know, really, really focus on, on keeping that soil alive and going.
Andy Neal
Don't worry. And as, as diverse as possible is, is better just the way that, like when we feed our guts, The more diverse food we have through our guts, the healthier it is and soil is no different.
Peter Green
Yeah. Why gents, we've, we've had so much that we've talked about there and, uh, a lot of it I think I'll probably keep thinking about for days to come.
So thank you so much for, for giving us so much of your thoughts and your time and, you know, everything to do with resilience, particularly with soil and around it. We try and sum up, um, at the end of each podcast by having, uh, showstoppers and. I try and sort of pick out just three points, which is always quite difficult to do because, uh, there's so much that we've, we've discussed.
But I think for me, that point that that was made about really understanding your farm and your soils, that's, that's got to be number one. You know, we've got to start there. So get your soil sampling done. Maybe think about getting organic matter trace elements and maybe GPS locations with it, and, and know your context.
Yes. You know, and I think that that includes, perhaps, You know, looking at, looking at how your farm looked maybe a hundred, 200 years ago, you know, maybe looking at, you know, the, the countryside around you that hasn't been improved, and then. Really it's about earning the right to plow. Tom talked about, you know, ground cover, constant feeding, perennial cropping, you know, making sure that we are keeping soil going.
And that's all with the view to the sort of that third point building organic matter. It's a slow thing, but it's just what we need to be doing to make sure that we have the most resilient soils possible. Anything I've missed off there, gentlemen? No, think you sound, I'll get it out. I'm getting shakes of the heads, which I think is a good thing in, in this, uh, in, in this arena.
I need to bring this conversation to a close, but we have one final killer question and it is a kind of a biggie. So, um, I'm going to you go to you first. Tom, when it comes to cream teas, is it jam or cream first?
His head is in his hands.
Tom Tolputt
He, there is no debate. You know, there is no debate as a Cornishman. Um, so, you know, I barely even want to answer the question because there is only one way, and that is the Cornish way. So it's absolutely
Peter Green
Very sensibles first. Tom, down. First always
Andy Neal
and only. Come on. Put your money with your mouth. Mouth with your money.
Tom Tolputt
No, put it is, it is, it is just the most divine way to eat Cream tea.
Peter Green
Doesn't even need to say it, Andy, apparently. I, I, I'm sure we don't really need to, to, to get an answer from you, but I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll do it anyway. Jam or cream first?
Andy Neal
I grew up in Devon. I live in Devon. I've done extensive, extensive research into this.
Lots of sampling, high replication. Mm-hmm. And I have to confirm that it's jammed first.
Peter Green
Wow. That is not an answer I was expecting. There we go. It wasn't. Hared. There we go. Two Neil. Fantastic. Well, look, there's no better place to end today's episode. Thank you so much to my guests, Tom Toit and Professor Andy Neil.
Join us again in a fortnight's time when we'll be asking what is a resilient mindset. I'll be joined then by the ever inspiring business coach Heather Wildman. Um, she really is brilliant to listen to, so do tune in then. Remember, the episodes of Farming Focus are released every fortnight on Tuesdays.
Please spread the word about the pod. Tell your farming friends, and if you've taken one thing from this podcast, please do take it away and talk about it with other Southwest farmers. That's what the podcast is all about, to spark conversations and to get people talking. Please also contact us on Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook using the handle at Cornish Mutual and let us know what you thought of today's episode.
Check out the show notes for more information on today's episode, including the link to our podcast. Disclaimer, you've been listening to Farming focused, brought to you by Cornish Mutual. I've been Peter Green. Until next time, it's goodbye for me and everyone in the Cornish Mutual podcast team.