Host Peter Green is joined by sheep farmers David and Carolyn Gill alongside FWAG South West's Devon team leader Sabine McEwan to discuss ELMS, the Sustainable Farming Incentive and environmental resilience.
Today on the show, we’re putting our focus on the new policy landscape across England and asking to what extent can the sustainable farming incentive, and other schemes make your farm business more resilient, economically and environmentally, over the next few years?
Peter is joined by Sabine McEwen who is Farm Environment Advisor and Devon Team Leader for FWAG South West. FWAG provides independent advice to farmers and landowners across the region. Also with him are Dorset sheep farmers David and Carolyn Gill from Upping Down Shetlands, to get their perspective on how the new schemes can help their business. =
Throughout this series we are focusing on the topic of resilience.
Farming Focus is the podcast for farmers in the South West of England, but is relevant for farmers outside of the region or indeed anyone in the wider industry or who has an interest in food and farming.
For more information on Cornish Mutual visit cornishmutual.co.uk
For our podcast disclaimer click here.
Timestamps
00:01 Cornish Mutual jingle.
00:06 Intro music.
00:15 Peter Green introduces the episode.
01:27 Sabine's first farming memory.
02:03 David's first farming memory.
02:45 Carolyn's first farming memory.
03:22 David and Carolyn are first generation farmers - how did they get into it? Carolyn explains.
04:45 Cornish Mutual jingle
04:56 What does resilience mean to David and Carolyn?
05:25 Resilience for Sabine.
06:12 Foresight and the long term nature of farming.
06:32 The Future Farm Resilience Programme.
08:30 What role have environmental schemes played for David and Carolyn?
10:56 Cornish Mutual jingle
11:47 Sabine explains the new schemes including Sustainable Farming Incentive.
15:17 Is there more hassle with these new schemes? Is this a common attitude?
17:23 Assessing success.
17:58 Cornish Mutual jingle
18:13 The difference between SFI and Countryside Stewardship.
21:00 How does the new system compare for David and Carolyn (SFI Pilot).
21:50 Farm size.
22:30 How has the feedback process been for David and Carolyn with Defra?
24:10 The claim process for David and Carolyn.
24:48 Experience of FWAG team on SFI and Countryside stewardship changes.
26:12 Rolling application window.
27:50 What advice would Sabine give to anyone listening who is sceptical about the new system?
30:30 The new schemes have the potential to make farmers more resilient if they are used part of a bigger system.
32:32 Carolyn explains how SFI encourages you to collect data.
33:14 David talks about baselining.
34:55 Peter rounds up with the cream tea question.
36:18 Peter rounds up with the '3 showstoppers' - SFI can support good practice; don't put your head in the sand; use your network; don't let the tail wag the dog with your business; collect data
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Peter Green
Hello and welcome to episode four of Farming Focus, the new podcast brought to you by Cornish Mutual to kickstart conversations in the Southwest farming community. I'm your host, Peter Green, and today on the show we're focusing on the new policy landscape. Across England and asking to what extent can sustainable farming incentive and other schemes make your farm business more resilient both economically and environmentally over the next few years?
I'm joined by three guests to discuss this. Firstly, I'm delighted to welcome to Sabine McEwen, whose farm environment advisor and Devon team leader for WAG across the Southwest WAG provides independent advice to farmers and landowners across the region. I'm also joined by sheep farmers, David and Carolyn Gill from Upping Down Shetlands to get their perspective on how the new schemes can help their business. Sabine, Carolyn, David, welcome to Farming Focus. Thank you. Hello. Thanks for having us. No problem. Um, I'll start by asking each of you the same question that we put to all of our guests. Could you share with us one of your earliest farming memories?
Sabine, perhaps you could start, please.
Sabine McEwan
Yes, so my granddad was a farmer in Germany. They had stopped farming before I was born, but they still lived on the farm, so we still had the yards and all the buildings and old machinery to play with. But he had a toy tractor that I could ride on and I. Really, really enjoyed that and I have no idea where that went. And that's very sad.
Peter Green
Ah, that's no good. We've got one of those at home that my five-year-olds have got, and I think it's about 50 years old. It's been iterated through the generations. I think there's a lot of those on farms somewhere at the back of sheds. David, Carolyn, how about you guys, your early farming memories?
David Gill
Uh, I guess for me, uh, and I should say from the outset, we are first generation farmers. So our farming hands-on knowledge only goes back about 10 years. But in my youth, I spent an awful lot of time with and without the family, uh, actually up in the Lake District. And I do remember particularly the Herdwicks up there. Um, you know, local, native to the lake district. Yeah. Um, and, and yeah, even at that age and stage, um, I, you know, I thought they were, they were brilliant, cheap, not that we've gone on to, so I guess, Sort of first memories of farming related things.
Peter Green
Yeah. Yeah. It planted a seed. How about you, Carolyn?
Carolyn Gill
And for me, I think it was holidays as a child in the peninsula, uh, where we stayed on a farm, which we used to enjoy immensely. I don't remember any details, but I do know that it was a farm and it ss smelled good.
Peter Green
That's not necessarily something that people will necessarily say when they're staying on a farm and they're not used to it. But, uh, yeah, those spells are, uh, yeah, pretty, uh, pretty exciting. Brilliant. Okay. Thank you very much for that. Um, so Carolyn, staying with you. Mm-hmm. Could you perhaps tell us a bit more about your business and how it's developed over time? We just heard that your first generation farmers, you know, how did you come about to, to get into farming?
Carolyn Gill
That's right.
Yes. Well, we lived in East Dawson and had a very small patch of land, which needed looking after and after much deliberation, we decided that we needed to put just a few livestock on it and we went to the Dorsett. County show and met up with some folks who had Shetland sheep. And because the land was very, very small, we could only put minimal number of sheep on it.
So we started out with two small Shetland sheep, and from there the flock has grown. We were encouraged to show our sheep. We were encouraged to breed our sheep. And six years ago we got. To the point where the deep had outgrown our facilities in East Dorset and we moved to our farm in West Dorset where things have really taken off.
Peter Green
Wow. Okay. So the, the, the farm, the sheep sort of drove a decision of where you were going to be to be living.
Carolyn Gill
That's correct. Yes. Yes. And the flock itself is now about 150 strong. They're all pedigree Shetland sheep, and we keep them for their wool. So for us, meat is a sideline.
Peter Green
And that's quite unusual. A lot of, um, so we'll have, um, mainly farming listeners, but some of our listeners maybe aren't in farming. A lot of sheep farmers are focused mainly on the meat, predominantly so, and, and less on the wool. But you are sort of doing it the other way around.
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Peter Green
We're talking there about resilience or in the broader sense, what does resilience mean to you and particularly in agriculture?
Carolyn Gill
Well, resilience for us is the ability to be able to meet any of the conditions that are thrown at us, whether they be environmental, climate or business. Mm-hmm. And we're finding at the moment that perhaps our biggest challenge does come from the climate.
Peter Green
Sabine, we'll come to you. What does resilience mean for you? And again, particularly in a, in a farming context.
Sabine McEwan
So for me, a resilient farm would be a farm that can adapt to. Changing situations and stresses. So whether that is the loss of B p s or climate or change in regulation is the sort of having the foresight, but also being resilient enough mentally to deal with the stress.
Take a step back. Assess. Assess what the threat is, what the opportunities are, and then make deliberate decisions going forward rather than just being in a situation where there's constant firefighting and just dealing with the issue just in front rather than going into some longer term planning with it.
Peter Green
That's an amazing answer. Thank you so much. There's loads of things in there that I love to unpack. I think the, the piece about foresight and trying to look ahead, when I was thinking about today's podcast, I was thinking about how long term farming can be, you know, we're, we're not able to necessarily react and see an outcome in a, in a short matter of time.
And you talk there about being able to, to step back. You know, we farmers are busy people. How do you think we can encourage farmers to, to do this a little bit more?
Sabine McEwan
Yeah, so we are working on the Future Farm Resilience Program and that's what we are trying to encourage people through the sessions that we do with them.
A lot of people see resilience as just the financial aspect and sort of thinking, okay, b p s is going, so therefore where's my alternative income coming from and jumping into the next schemes, like sustainable farming incentive or countryside stewardship. But we are encouraging farmers to step back and sort of review.
The situation on the farm, how it is now. Who has decision making powers? Where's the succession discussion at? Is it clear who's gonna take over the farm? Therefore, who will, you know, can take decisions now? Can will take decisions in the future. It helps with that discussion to have a goal or a vision for the farm where you would ideally want to go, let's say if there wasn't any restrictions from.
Regulation or whatever, just to have a, a rough vision of where you would like to be. Um, hopefully share that vision with everyone. In the business or in the family so that everyone pulls in the same direction. Assess what the land can do, what it can't do, so it's not pushed too much. And then really drill into the details of the farm business.
Start gathering more and more information to get to a point where you can make evidence-based decisions. Rather than sort of, oh, I think this has always cost too much for us in the past. Um, sort of anecdotal evidence. Really start getting into the habit of recording all the data, splitting by enterprise so that you can drill down, then make decisions going forward, and monitor them as you go along continuously to then be able to adapt and know what those changes are helping with or are not helping with.
Peter Green
That's great. I mean, there's, there's, there's so much in there and I think people will probably need to sort of press pause and have, have their pen and paper by 'em as they, as they listen to that. David, coming back to you, um, we talked a little bit about your farming career to date. What role have the various environmental schemes such as country stewardship played in your business and, and how have they influenced your farm's direction? Or has the, the farm dictated which schemes you've got into?
David Gill
I think to a large extent, it's the latter. The farms dictated what opportunities we perhaps should, should have looked at or should look at and follow. And obviously what limitations are, it just doesn't make sense, you know, because of our particular geography or what or whatever.
It was a completely new ballgame, Carolyn and I when we came here to the farm six years ago. Prior to that, yes, we had our sheep, albeit limited number, but we rented land mainly apart from the small bit outta the back. We weren't in receipt of b p s. So sort of suddenly coming to a a, a farm, albeit a small farm, what a lot of farmers and other people would've, would think of as, as being absolutely basic, you know, fundamental jargon.
You know, even down to B p s, the B P SS payment window or, or application window or whatever, whatever, you know, suddenly we were faced with all of that and thankfully we've had a lot of help on that and there's nothing like using the people, you know, or you come into contact with. And so in terms of countryside stewardship schemes early on we actually, uh, got to know, and I can't remember.
Probably through, through a, a seminar or something. We went to, actually got to know a couple of folk in, in Flag Southwest. And then one of the guys came along to the farm. We walked around, we discussed what we wanted to do or what we were doing. Um, and, and that ended up with us in, in terms of, uh, countryside stewardship.
Uh, we went into an agreement that covered hedgerows. And a bit of put aside land. I think it was under GS one, you know, we probably did that for, what, two or three years? Mm-hmm. Some, something like that. Uh, we did have a look at, um, some water capital goods and then we, we sort of held off that and we also received countryside stewardship, uh, capital grant for hedgerow gapping.
Peter Green
That's brilliant. Yeah. And your point there about acronyms, I think that's something which farming and, and, and lots of industries in the uk Oh yeah. Perhaps, uh, like to rely on
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Peter Green
we've made these decisions politically and as a country to, to, to go in a certain direction. And actually, Sabine. We are in this period of agricultural transition, which has followed on from Brexit. We're moving away from support payments such as the basic payment scheme, which were prescribed by the, the eus common agricultural policy to a, a UK agricultural policy, which is perhaps more focused on paying farmers and land managers for ecological performance and the provision of, of public goods, you know, clean air, clean water, and the like. Could you give us a brief outline of new schemes, and particularly the sustainable farming incentive? Tell us about the take up and, and interest so far across the Southwest when it, when it comes to those new schemes.
Sabine McEwan
Yeah, so the sustainable farming incentive is a new scheme, which is part of Elms, which will slowly and gradually take over the existing schemes.
It's quite complicated at the moment because DEFRA has taken the decision to keep existing schemes running and then introducing new schemes. Which might to us seem like absolutely overwhelming 'cause there's so much happening and you can overlap them as long as you don't get paid for the same thing twice.
But what is getting paid for the same thing twice? You know? How is that defined? There's a lot of questions everyone has at the moment, but the alternative would've been to have a cliff edge. No scheme for a year, and then a new scheme starting. And obviously with high input prices in B P s going, that was not the best option to go for.
So I think we can be grateful for how it is, even though it is overwhelming. So existing countryside stewardship is keeping going as it is, and a few more options have been added on, on natural flood management and educational visits and things like that. And then the sustainable farming incentive.
Started with a pilot a few years ago, but last year farmers could start applying for soil standards and then this year, six more standards with several actions within each standard will open for application. At the moment, we've only got indicative payment rates and indicative prescriptions of what the aims of those actions are, but we're waiting for, well, basically the opening of the application window with.
Hopefully some more information about what a farmer needs to do or needs to achieve. The sustainable farming incentive, you could say, is a little bit more aimed towards the intensive farmer and towards things that aren't part of countryside stewardship, although there's a few overlapping standards starting now.
Under that, you can do a few whole farm planning standards like nutrient management planning and integrated pest management. So those are. A great idea to sort of get towards the more strategic forward planning, take a whole farm approach rather than just thinking about individual fields. And it's getting a bit more flexible, um, for farmers because it's got a rolling application window.
It's a three year agreement with some flexibility of changing. At the break point every year, what you're doing, and you can add standards as they come online, and obviously there's change between fields that switch from arable land use to grass lays or things like that. There's also a management payment of 20 pounds per hectare up to thousand pounds per agreement, and that's a recognition that.
Joining any of these agreements involves a lot of admin and is sort of trying to pay for some of that time of the farmer and make it a bit easier and more attractive to join the scheme.
Peter Green
Yeah. Okay. Thank, thank you for that roundup. And I think that last point you made about admin, it definitely feels from speaking to friends who have looked at getting involved in S F I or have been part of the pilot, that we've gone from this regime of having sort of, um, you know, a payment, which, which comes to us just based on effectively the land area that we farmed.
Having to jump through a lot more hoops. We're having to do a lot more planning. There was the cross compliance before, but actually there's definitely a feeling with some pharma friends that there's more hassle in applying for these new schemes. Would that be a fair reflection of the sort of attitude that you've come across?
Sabine McEwan
Yes, I would say so. Although, interestingly, We’re thinking that cross compliance was a lot of red tape. It's quite interesting to see that, you know, that is staying. But what has happened is, And even in countryside stewardship. Now all these standards have aims and that's basically what stating what those schemes are wanting to achieve.
And it then lets it a bit more open to the farmer to decide how that aim is going to be met, rather than just having prescriptions and you know, you are gonna be judged basically on whether you follow the prescription or not. It's moved to, you're gonna be judged on whether you meet the aim or not. And then there's usually some, some things that you definitely can't do and some advice going with it, but it is a little bit more open to the farmer, which is encouraging and very nice.
But then on the other side, it's sort of leaves it open to interpretation and especially with the information we have on SS F I standards at the moment, at first glance, they might read as though. I don't have to do much. 'cause the prescription section is very, very short. But then when you start thinking about it and really drilling into the detail of, okay, so how would I actually meet the aim?
How can I ensure that I meet the aim? It then on second glance, seems a bit more restrictive than your thought, so, mm-hmm. It's important to really think about it. Rather than sort of tying yourself up in knots. Yeah, thinking it's quite easy money.
Peter Green
And it seems to me that you need to think about your own context as well. So I don't have the information here in front of me, but for example, uh, an aim might be to increase the number of pollinators on farm and that's great and I might look to, um, put a herbal lay in and to make sure that I leave it for a minimum of five weeks between May and July to get those pollinators coming to the, to the flowering plants. How, how will that actually be assessed though?
Sabine McEwan
Yeah, that is a good question. It depends on whether an inspector, although it's not an inspection anymore, it's a farm visit. Yeah. Whether that happens in that time. Yeah. Or whether that moves towards being more of a satellite assessment. I mean, at the moment, a lot of that is still on the sort of grazing calendar, and you're keeping records of when you're cutting and when you're grazing, and then an inspector or a. Friendly farm visitor. It's, um, would want to see that in your record keeping that you have kept that five week gap.
Peter Green
It's certainly quite nuanced.
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Peter Green
I was listening to a, a different podcast earlier in the year and the difference between Countryside stewardship and S F I that was given by, um, one of the team from Def Rev. Seemed to be that countryside stewardship is more about specific items. So you touched on, um, scheduled monuments and perhaps me putting in a length of fencing or a new wooden gate would come under the capital grants for countryside stewardship.
Whereas the s f I seemed more holistic and it seemed to be more at a, a parcel level and, and possibly even a, a farm level. It's to do with how you manage your soils across a a, a number of fields. Does, does, is that a, a fair summary for our listeners?
Sabine McEwan
Um, yes, to an extent. 'cause you do have those whole farm plans, which are very useful.
Yeah, it's just, it's just the nuances really. Yeah. The difference on agreement periods. But one thing that I forgot to say earlier was that s F I does quarterly payments. So for a farm with cashflow issues, that might be very helpful compared to the annual payments under countryside stewardship.
Peter Green
Okay. And thinking about sort of, um, flag, what's their perspective on how SFI can help farmers, um, make their business more resilient both environmentally and economically?
Sabine McEwan
It is certainly helpful and the actions that S f I support are basically. Just good farming practice. So looking after the soils, looking after the nutrients, you know, all of those things would then play into becoming more resilient in a sense of soils. You are more resilient if your soils are healthy, which means they are functioning.
They, you know, a drought might affect you later than another person's farm where there's water just runs off and doesn't infiltrate into the soil. Also, with the nutrients, healthy soils, um, and. Good nutrient management planning means you're less reliant on buying in fertilizers. If you're using the most of your own manures or slurries, you are cycling those nutrients in the soil so that again, you are more resilient.
Longer term things don't affect you as quickly, and it can provide some income. Especially if you are already carrying out these good practices, then it will seem like money for what you're already doing. If it isn't what you're already doing, then it can seem like. Well, it, it is then helping you towards kind of almost viewing it as a trial to see how these things are affecting your farm.
Is it helping, is it not?
Peter Green
That's great. Okay, so David and Carolyn, you are in the S f I pilot. How have you found it, you know, and particularly thinking about, you know, old, old schemes that, that have been available. How does it compare?
David Gill
Um, it's been a different experience and is a different experience to countryside stewardship.
Actually, to go into S f I pilot, we came out of countryside stewardship. Uh, we had, we had to do it that way. So SS f I pilot For us, why did we do it? We wanted to make sure rep representation was there from the smaller farmer. And having seen, if you like, the demographic of the size of farms that are in SS f I Pilot, were in there.
Um, but it is, it is weighted, I think towards the larger farmer, you know, far larger farms.
Peter Green
Could you just quantify that? So give us an idea of sort of your farms area and. The, the impression you have of, of the sort of most common type of farm size.
David Gill
Our farm is 21 acres. Mm-hmm. So actually a limitation for us is we have to manage and, and watch our flock size quite carefully in terms of stocking densities.
Uh, and also things like, uh, rotational grazing come into play mm-hmm. When we're just managing 21 acres, larger farms, or, or I'm working from memory here, Peter. Um, of the demographic. Demographic, if you like. I seem to recall, you know, there's a lot of farms, 150 acres plus 200 acres plus.
Peter Green
Yeah. Well, it's, it's great that you've taken that opportunity especially to, to come out of country edge stewardship and get involved in the pilot. How has the feedback process been?
Carolyn Gill
Feedback process has been really good. Yeah, there's been a lot of communication with the team. We're given lots of opportunities to participate in events, um, and in workshops face-to-face and, uh, on the internet.
Peter Green
That's really interesting because you sort of, we hear a lot about Defra being ready to listen, but it's whether they're actually doing it. So it's great to hear that they are. Yes. And has your experience meant that you are keen to continue and you would, you would keep. Doing, um, keep applying for the s f i going forward?
Carolyn Gill
Yes, absolutely. Yes. Um, we've had visits to the farm from the R P A, which have been very successful, quite different. We understand to an inspection.
Uh, they were very helpful,
Sabine McEwan
um, and flexible.
Peter Green
They're more consultative.
Carolyn Gill
Very consultative. Yes. Very good. Yes. And listening rather than telling. Absolutely.
David Gill
Yes. Yes. I mean, we did have. We have one, um, comparison actually, in terms of having an R p A inspection under Countryside Stewardship and the inspection versus the SS f I visit s f I pilot visit.
They weren't quite like chalk and cheese, but, but you know, there was a definite difference between them. Uh, and we've heard from other farmers who've had SS f I. Um, visits, and again, you know, everybody seems to be, seems to be very positive about them.
Peter Green
That's great. It's really good to hear that there's, that, that positive engagement. So you said you'd, um, you'd look to continue in these schemes. How difficult have you found the actual application process and then. The claim process, the annual claim process after that initial application?
Carolyn Gill
Generally very good. There have been hiccups and um, uh, defra and the SS f I team are, are the first to recognize that there are issues and they are working on them and we have seen improvements.
But the application process itself is very straightforward. It's not difficult to do. Um, and they have altered considerably. How you apply from when we applied for the pilot into the SS f I, uh, main program. Main program itself. Yeah. And we understand now that it is very, very simple to do.
Peter Green
Right. Great. So Sabine, does that match the experience, um, of yourself and other members of the team at fwag?
Sabine McEwan
Yes. So from what we've seen, so even countryside stewardship has moved to an online application system where you choose fields on the R P A system. That's all seems. To be working, although there's some minor hiccups, but that's always going to be the case with whatever new system we start. Um, the difficulty with this system is a little bit that if your land information isn't correct, the system might not let you apply for something that you want to apply for.
So it's important to go into it now. Um, and check whether your field, you know, your land uses, your land covers and your hedges are registered and all those kind of things, because otherwise the computer will just say no. Yeah. And you won't understand why it doesn't work. I know I got called and those changes have to be made before you can then apply, so, yeah.
Yeah. Still preparation is key.
Peter Green
Updating the maps is, uh, a bit of an onerous. Process. But um, I know that one year I was looking to put my hedgerows in my countryside stewardship scheme and actually when I clicked the, uh, the tick button to show hedges on my map, a lot of the hedge rows hadn't actually been included.
So mm-hmm. Fortunately, I did it in time. We got it all sorted and there were no issues, but, um, it is always worth checking that for sure.
Sabine McEwan
And of course, those sorts of issues are less of a problem with a rolling application window. 'cause you notice there's a problem, you fix it and then you apply. Whereas if you've got a.
Annual deadline like it was with countryside Stewardship. You've got this big buildup trying to get everything right.
Peter Green
Yeah. Which is quite tricky sometimes, which is not great. So, um, what would you say to farming friends that perhaps feel that we should be just allowed to get on with, with producing food, you know, for a growing world population rather than as, as some might see it taking some areas outta production.
Carolyn Gill
Yes. Well, you can take areas outta production if you wish to do that, but you don't have to. There are lots of things that you can do to help the environment as well as keeping food production at a level that's required. Things like, for example, looking after your hedgerows, not cutting them quite as much, keeping a margin so that the wildlife has an opportunity.
To flourish and in particular, thinking about things like pollinators and bees. Uh, we keep areas that are long grass to encourage the insects and the pollinators so that they're helping our farmer friends who are perhaps producing cider. Or arable crops.
Peter Green
Yeah, no. So it's not just a one or a zero, it's production or the environment.
What you are saying is that there's some areas where production hasn't been hindered in any way, but actually you are just thinking about what you're doing slightly differently perhaps, and you are just employing different techniques. Sabine. You must have met really positive farmers like David and Carolyn who, who want to prepare themselves and their business for, for this changing regime of support.
But what's your experience been with those who are maybe less inclined to engage and, and what advice would you give to anyone listening who's really skeptical at, at looking at the new support that's being offered?
Sabine McEwan
Yeah, so I mean, as with any groups of people, you always get the early adopters and the trailblazers and the trialers, and then you get those that sort of watch others do it, learn from them, and then adopt it then, and then you've got the.
People who are, you know, kind of scared of change maybe, or don't think they've got the computer skills to join the schemes. I would say that it is always worth engaging and gathering information. Gathering information doesn't mean you have to go into anything you. Yet, but you know more what is out there so you feel less stressed about potentially being left behind or missing out.
And for some people, just that, you know, getting an advisor or going through the future farm resilience scheme, just having that hour or two, having a farm visit or an online session where the family steps back from farming and can ask questions or just talk amongst themselves with someone around if it is about.
Tricky issue to talk about. Even that can already help just to gain some clarity and get a new. You know, action plan going, whether then you go into a scheme or not, it almost doesn't matter, even if you've decided that it's not for you, at least you've made a deliberate decision based on information.
It's looking into the business and where you are at and where you wanna go first, and then join a scheme if that aligns with where you want to go, rather than being pulled into lots of different directions by schemes just to bring in some money.
Peter Green
So just to be really clear, don't look at the scheme and the, the hectare payment and then, you know, plant a field because it gives you a good rate.
Look at your farm, look at your context and what works. And then look at the options that can fit. That's what you're saying? Yes. Great. Okay. That's fab. So looking overall at the sustainable farming incentive in particular, but also the, the other schemes which are on offer at the moment, Sabine first and, and then David and Carolyn.
Do you feel that these offerings are making farmers in the southwest more resilient, less resilient? There's no change.
Sabine McEwan
I think they have the potential to make farmers more resilient if they are viewed as part of a bigger package, bigger toolbox. If they are used for. Becoming resilient environmentally building soil, carbon building habitats, but also looking at the capital grants out there to get compliant in their yards.
Those kind of things that really works, but it has to be viewed with the package of looking into the business doing. Better business planning and recording and some of the sort of mindset change, opening themselves up to change those kind of things. You could almost say that there should be a business planning.
S I standard that then has a few subsets to sort of encourage some of those actions. I dunno if that's to come. I really like that just to occur to me.
Peter Green
So, so yeah, let's just, let's just, let's just open that one up a bit more. So, for example, making sure that there's an opportunity for, for farmers and land managers to get some training in, you know, business change and, and business planning, that sort of thing.
Is that, is that sort of thing you're, you're thinking.
Sabine McEwan
Yes, doing management accounts, doing benchmarking, so comparing in individual enterprises on your farm with other farms to start seeing that perhaps, oh, someone else is doing something better or are managing to do it cheaper. So what could it be in detail that they're doing that I'm not doing?
Discussion groups, those kind of things.
Peter Green
So, so some, some of those things might be available with the Future Farm, um Resilience Program. I know that the Prince is Countryside Fund also have a different resilience program, which can offer some of those things. Carolyn, I can, I could see you nodding there with a lot of what Sabine was saying.
Yes. Thinking particularly about, um, Benchmarking and working Yes. With with neighbors. Yes, you am I right in thinking that you, you do feel that these SFI can improve resilience in farms across the Southwest?
Carolyn Gill
Absolutely because it encourages you to collect data and once you've got data, then you can start to make informed decisions about where you take your business.
Benchmarking is particularly important and I know the A H D B support benchmarking, uh, for businesses and also for livestock. So there's a lot of opportunity once you start to collect that data.
Sabine McEwan
And once you have data, it also opens up the whole new world of nature credits and carbon credits and all those kind of things.
But you do need a baseline for that and as if I can help with some of that baselining.
David Gill
Yeah, I was about to say actually that the word baseline is being used now more than more. Uh, and in fact, uh, ke well, I remember almost whatever, nine months ago, it was an s f i face-to-face event with Geca. Uh, one of the points we were making was, was, you know, baselining.
Um, absolutely so essential because, you know, if, if you don't know what you've got already, you, you're not really sure where you're going or where you can take it. Uh, that to me is, is sort of almost a bit of a hobby, horse based learning, to be quite honest. And in terms of resilience. Just going back to that, if that's okay, Peter?
Yeah. Uh, again, I echo what, what Sabine said in terms of SS f I program. Indeed, anything under elms. Actually en COEs a, a different mindset. And I don't mean this in a, in a, in a atory way or anything like that, but you've, you've, we've had b p s and that's just been a given, just been a absolute given. And has that really driven any, any thoughts, change or behavior change?
Probably not encouraged it. Particularly well, whereas now the SS F I program, but also anything else as they end the bigger umbrella of elms, A actually notwithstanding availability of time for farmers and landowners. But it does encourage and create a more positive environment for thinking about how to do things differently, how to do things additionally and.
If you do go down that line, you building resilience to your business.
Peter Green
Brilliant. That's great. So much there to, to think about. You've given us so much information. Um, Sabine, David, Carolyn, thank you so much. We've asked a lot of questions of you, but there are none more important than this final one. Great brace yourself.
Sabine looks terrified when it comes to cream teas. Is it jam first? Cream first. Sabine
Sabine Mcewan
Cream first. 'cause that's harder to spread. And then the jam is easy on top.
Peter Green
Okay, gonna take, gonna take it. I'm not sure I like it. David, Carolyn, come on. There's three of you. Definitely
Carolyn Gill
jam first. Correct? Every time.
Peter Green
One all. David, you've got the deciding vote head judge. Well,
David Gill
you know, I'm gonna say, um, jam first actually.
Peter Green
Good. And, and why am I gonna say that? Which is perhaps not a good, good sort of, um, uh, thing to say in this podcast, uh, because we've always done it that way.
David Gill
No, but I'm open, I'm open to some logic about why we. Should do it differently. And I quite like the spreading easy bit.
Peter Green
Sabine, so open to change.
Savine McEwan
Good, David. So why don't you do a trial and you do one, one way and one the other way, and you monitor how it feels as you're doing it. Good idea.
David Gill
Absolutely.
Peter Green
Yeah, I know what we're all gonna be doing this afternoon. That's fantastic. Thank you all so much. Um, it's time that, uh, we round up for today, but before we finish each episode, I'd like to try and, um, highlight a few key points or showstoppers that our listeners might like to take away and have a think about.
Um, I think the overwhelming theme of this chat has been that ss f I can support good practice and it, and it makes good business sense. And David and Carolyn Gill's experience. Has underlined that and they have had a positive experience in terms of their interaction with, with, um, dere and the R p A on that, in terms of, you know, the, the points to really take away, well, number one I've got is, is don't put your head in the sand.
You know, farming is a, is a slow moving ship and it can take a long time to make changes. So forewarned is forearmed, BPSs is disappearing. We're all starting to really feel that. So, so act now. Secondly, David touched on this early on, and I really like this one. Use your network. You know, it might be your Cornish Mutual Field Force agent.
It might be someone from flag, it might be a neighbor, someone you see at market. Just ask them what they're doing, what's working for them. I think that's a, that's a really powerful question. You know, what are you up to at the moment? What's working? And then finally just thinking about your own business.
Don't let the tail wag the dog. I think it's really important not to try and shoehorn your business. Sabine's laughing there. I dunno if that translates into, into German Sabine, but it's really important not to shoehorn your business into, into something which isn't really right for it or for you. And also think about your business.
Just just collect data, you know, have a look at what you're doing, measure your outputs, and measure your inputs, and that gives you a starting point. Is there anything else that you think I need to, to add onto those showstoppers,
Sabine?
Sabine McEwan
No. Other than also look after your mental health?
Absolutely. David and Carolyn, anything, any last points from you?
David Gill
I would only echo again, uh, uh, from our experience, but also talking to others who were involved in SS f i Pilots and S f I, uh, you know, these, these programs have a lot to offer and, and it, they are a long way away from previous schemes. Previous schemes still have their place undoubtedly at the moment, but s f I has a a lot to offer.
Peter Green
Brilliant. That's great. And hopefully today's conversation has, has maybe made some people that are listening think Again, all that remains is to be said. Uh, is a big thank you to my guests, to David Gill, Carolyn Gill, and Sabine McEwen. Remember that episodes of Farming Focus are released every fortnight on Tuesdays.
Please spread the word about the pod. Tell your farming neighbors, maybe discuss a couple of the showstoppers from this podcast with, with other Southwest farmers over the next few days. 'cause that's what this podcast is all about. We want to start conversations. Please rate, review, and subscribe to Farming Focus wherever you get your podcasts.
And contact us on Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook using the handle at Cornish Mutual to get involved in the conversation. Join us in another fortnight's time when we'll be thinking about farming stories and asking how telling your farming story to the public could make farming as a whole more resilient in the longer term.
Please see the show notes for more information on today's episode, including the link to our podcast. Disclaimer, you've been listening to Farming Focus, brought to you by Cornish Mutual. I've Peter Green. Until next time, it's goodbye from me and everyone in Cornish Mutual podcast team.